Also very interested in how this will swing once Tom chimes in. I can see it going both ways. Personally, i would like to see this approved. I live on a road where some people who have money throw out objects of value weekly, and i pick up these items of value and sell or trade them. Most recently, a riding craftsman mower that needed a .80 cent oil gasket and i sold for 600 bucks lol.
This opens up a whole new world for me if approved, however i can see this being a gray area.
In reply to surfshibby07 :
I mean, we use E36 M3 from trash night on the cars, it's free to anyone. I too have sold stuff i pick up on the curb, or traded it. It's no different than using appliance pieces for body panels
Unrelated acquisitions are out.
I disposed of (74) 30 yard dumpsters of metal scrap on my last job. By this interpretation, I could have recycled all of it and used the cash to find a heck of a lot more than a Challenge car.
This is my opinion, but this idea is way too easy to distort completely beyond recognition.
No, no, no.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
No because once you convert to cash it's totally unrelated. You trade something for a challege part it's related. If you paid $1000 for the something then the part is $1000 budget. If you paid $0 for something then the part is $0 budget.
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
Right, but I had $30K worth of scrap metal. I could have easily traded it for a $10K car.
Nope.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Wouldn't that be stealing from your employer? Everyone has their own morals. Some are a lot darker gray than others.
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
No. The material was disposed of. My job is just to get rid of it. My employer did not make anything on it.
Irrelvant.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
Next you'll tell us a free car is still free if you have to buy a $900 car with it.
Or that a rod knock might be an easy fix because you didn't hear the rod knock yourself.
I'm done.
The point had nothing to do with the ethics of how my company chooses to handle their waste. It was just an example.
The point was that ANYONE can make an enormous effort of collecting cast-off unrelated items and converting them. That doesn't make it part of building a car for a specific budget.
I'll wait for Tom.
In reply to Stampie (FS) :
Seriously? Wow.
Stampie (FS) said:I've only seen one shiny happy person at the Challenge. Maybe a couple of people that violate the don't be a dick rule just by breathing.
Someone is breathing.
Outsider point of view
If you get a broken washing machine out of the trash, and use some metal off it, you are an innovative cheapskate. And the point of this race. $0 hit.
If you put $20 into fixing it and trade for car part used in build, you are an innovative cheapskate. And the point of this race. $20 hit
If you can scrouge $30K in scrap, leagaly, and put a good amount of that in your pocket, I'd give part to charity, and your a smart dude.
If you trade said scrap, and trade for a race car, and show up to race against guys trying to be cheap, you are being a dick, and not meeting the point ov this race. Hit the road, jack!
Apples and oranges!
S'rex, I see the point your making, and some dicks will push the rules till they scream, but the line laid out is WAY obvious. When the line gets close, the judge's have to decide what side of the line is where. Till then... lets run the cheap stuff!
Document it, see if it fly's. the OP ain't being a dick, I think he can trade a free anything for a part that is used.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:Unrelated acquisitions are out.
once free toilet you picked on the curb is traded for a muffler for the event, it's not an unrelated transaction anymore. I brought up the paperclip to a house deal at some point recently and Tom said he would welcome it if someone wanted to go through the hassle of repeatedly trading up to a new (insert supercar here) provided they document it fully. I think where your example fails to compare is you're on a construction site and other people are loading dumpsters for your company, you're not driving around on trash night seeing the value in a particular item someone has cast off. It's completely lacking in creativity. I used to be a scrapper/picker, and i got so many good car parts for free. Hell one house had a 360 dodge and transmission out on a pallet with a free sign. Should one not be able to use any of this? I was working a few years ago and a lady came over from across the street and said "if you clean out all my dead husbands stuff from my garage you can have everything" - not fair to be in the right place at the right time?
plus if someone trades $30k in scrap for a $10k car to try and win a $2k budget editorial event, that's just bad math and they'll likely not win anything or have a story written anyway. The Mumpkin was way cooler than anything you could buy with your dumpsters of scrap
I think that SVREX's example would be an inside deal-something that only he would have access to and knowledge of. By the rules he would have to declare FMV for the 30k of scrap, which would rule out the deal itself.
Parts/materials/items that are set out on the curb by strangers are different because they're free to anybody.
I don't think trading/selling stuff you found on the curb breaks the challenge in any way. Selling would be covered under recoup, and trading is already part of the rules.
In reply to CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) :
All 72 dumpsters were set on the curb over the course of a 14 month project, not locked, and available to anyone. The only rule was that people digging through it couldn't scatter it around.
Scrappers made a killing.
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
I'd never considered that aspect. Maybe let's grab a beer from that cooler over there and you can tell me more?
From the rules:
"You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling or trading unrelated parts into your budget."
In this example, the vacuum and the S2000 exhaust are both unrelated parts. Trade them for related parts and the related parts need to be budgeted at FMV.
However, if you grabbed a bunch of vacuums out of the trash because you were going to make a vacuum-powered Challenge car, then changed your mind midway through the build and traded them for a LS1, then the LS1 would be $0.
Where is the line? Simple: It's wherever your peers are willing to protest, in which case the GRM staff would assess intent and make a ruling/penalization.
In reply to Tom Suddard :
Thanks Tom!
So if you say mounted a tiny piece of the vacuum to your car it would be related. I promise not to protest you but I will take a beer if offered.
hear me out, please.
EDIT: Nevermind. Tom has spoken.
EDIT EDIT: But wait, don't nevermind! Tom, i have question based on your response.
your example of "picked out of trash because was gonna use but then changed mind and traded for something else" is in direct contradiction of your unrelated part definition. i was OK with your response up to that point, but now you've put us right back to where we were before you responded.
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
He clears this up by saying it hinges on intent.
It's pretty clear for my case-at no point did I intend to use the vacuum for the challenge car.
I think an example of legal trash picking/trading under his ruling would be if I intended to use the s2000 exhausts but changed direction halfway through the build, and traded them for something else of value. At that point it's up to competitors to protest and the judges to make a judgement call based on my build, credibility, etc.
This is now clear as mud..........I traded two sets of wheels that I purchased for $80/set and $50/set for two sets of wider wheels and in both cases I gained some tires and in one case some cash, too. That better all be legal or I'm buggered on my budget.
Remember when the rules were 1 page and attendance started going back up? This is getting too stupid and complicated again because there's 2 people in every group that mess it up for everyone
In reply to CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) :
and how do we police "intent"?
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Build threads, build books, simple rationality, and decent judgement. Probably with some of the "don't be a dick" rule thrown in. There a million ways to cheat in this event; to some extent we're all depending on each other to have a fair and honest race.
The best thing you can win at the challenge are new friends. Trying to circumvent the rules by lying about what you intended to do makes that tough.
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