It's been a week. Can we have a rules discussion thread?

I think the rules should stay substantially the same because of the teams that couldn't come because of Covid.  Except for the following.

1) Can there be a noise penalty for concours for anyone running an engine inside the pavilion after judging has started?  I've seen and heard stories too many times of judging being interrupted because someone decided to violate the don't be a dick rule.

2)  I remember this coming up in Robbie's build thread.  Can a "or better" be added to this

Five-point roll bars meeting item 4:10 of the NHRA's general safety regulations and arm restraints are mandatory in all open-top cars running a 13.49 E.T. or faster or running non-DOT tires

Thanks for starting this, Stampie.

Yeah, happy to discuss any changes, but know that we're trying to keep things as consistent as possible for 2021 because this has been such a weird year.

I like #1

Several of the cars are LOUD, even out in the open.  Get them in a pavilion where they can echo and its several steps past annoying.

There would probably need to be a solid line just outside where engines need to be off or you'll get that one guy that says "its just for a second" and doesn't turn it off.

Oh I forgot #3

3) Any stickers available on the GRM store are exempt from budget.

The one thing i would like to see is if you are being judged your car needs to be in the pavilion when judging starts.  Why should someone get 3 extra hours to do cosmetic stuff to their car in the parking lot and roll into the pavilion 5 minutes to the end of judging and be given time?

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Funny how that ties into my point number 1 when that same person announces that yep I'm here now.

Stampie (FS) said:

2)  I remember this coming up in Robbie's build thread.  Can a "or better" be added to this

Five-point roll bars meeting item 4:10 of the NHRA's general safety regulations and arm restraints are mandatory in all open-top cars running a 13.49 E.T. or faster or running non-DOT tires

Something like this?

Five-point roll bar meeting section 4:10 of the NHRA's general safety regulations, or better, and arm restraints are mandatory in all open-top cars running non-DOT tires and/or quicker than 13.50 ET.

Or am I missing your point?

In reply to gumby (Forum Supporter) :

Nope you got it.  The discussion was well what about a cage allowing faster than a roll bar.  Personally I think this is less confusing.

Five-point roll bars, or better, meeting item 4:10 of the NHRA's general safety regulations and arm restraints are mandatory in all open-top cars running a 13.49 E.T. or faster or running non-DOT tires

Roll bars with arm restraints utilizing at minimum five points of welded contact with car structure and meeting item 4:10 of the NHRA's general safety regulations are mandatory in all open-top cars running either non-DOT tires or an ET of 13.49 or faster.

How about that?  I have no dog in this so ignore away.

In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

Problem is wording it to fit NHRA ruleset.

Stampie (FS) said:

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Funny how that ties into my point number 1 when that same person announces that yep I'm here now.

Was not there this year, can't speak on it.  
 

also i am probably guilty of running a loud car under the pavilion during judging because of being taken away to do pictures, but i idled out and did not pull back in because i had been judged already.  Didn't think of that honestly, and will be mindful in the future 

I think the problem with the rule is the "non-dot" tire portion. 

If you are running non dot tires on a stock miata (running like a 16+ quarter), you need both nhra roll bar and arm restraints. 

Yeah my re-write describes it that way.

Also doing drag and concours at the same time makes it hard for everyone to be in the concour pavilion at the concour start time.

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Yeah my re-write describes it that way.

My point is that in general I don't think that is what they mean to write in the rule. Sm7s on a stock miata probably doesn't really require arm restraints and a roll bar.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

As someone that ran SM7s on a Miata with no legal roll bar or arm restraints, they have a DOT stamp on them.  Yeah I was worried and checked.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

It's basically drag slicks.  Sm7, r7, a7 are all dot stamped.  So are most drag radials.  

The answer is simple. Just be so slow that the safety guys wouldn't even care if you staged without a seatbelt. That's what I did (the slow thing, not the seatbelt thing) and nobody gave me even a hint of trouble. 

Did this year change in the event? I know on friday we autocross in the afternoon, then dinner, and then fire up for drags and on sat was the car show and judging. did this change at all this year and what happened to cause it to change?

What is a 5 point roll cage anyway? I have hear 4 point and 6 point, but 5?

ckosacranoid said:

Did this year change in the event? I know on friday we autocross in the afternoon, then dinner, and then fire up for drags and on sat was the car show and judging. did this change at all this year and what happened to cause it to change?

What is a 5 point roll cage anyway? I have hear 4 point and 6 point, but 5?

It rained at about 1 and cancelled the remaining autocross and moved the drags to the next day

From all I heard, rare that it would happen, but now that it has it is a good thing to bring up ways to make the day better.

Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

It's basically drag slicks.  Sm7, r7, a7 are all dot stamped.  So are most drag radials.  

The avon and hoosier takeoffs I ran last year and this year are not dot tires, but they are great grip for a darn good price as well.

Anyway, I understand rules aren't perfect and that some things must be for insurance purposes. I'm also ok with the track being a little lax on enforcement, it's their track and their decision. They don't need to uphold grm rules.

What is unfortunate though is that people who read the rules carefully are the ones who get boned. Either we build our cars to the letter and compete with folks who didn't, or worse we don't bring a car that is close but not technically legal only to have cars much more flagrant at the event competing anyway.

I don't know how to fix that though, realistically.

In reply to ckosacranoid :

Rain-outs have happened several times.

Originally the drags and autocross were run on different days, with the drags FIRST.  
 

Part of changing the event to run all the competitive components the same day was to give the opportunity to reschedule the drags to the next day if the weather did not cooperate. 

I don't think we need a pavilion rule, just a polite mention at the drivers meeting. It's a loud event and after doing a million drag passes in a car people tend to forget it is hard to have a conversation near them.

I cant find the challenge rules right now. Is the roll bar rule problem because the challenge rules don't mention cages?

In reply to MrJoshua :

I think putting the roll bar rule directly from nhra book to challenge rules would save people from having to wade through the nhra book.  Also it would give tom a concrete reason to kick someone out or DQ them. We're at the point that someone needs made an example of for flagrantly ignoring or not bothering to follow safety rules before something really bad happens.  If someone chooses to ignore safety it doesn't mean I want to watch them die because of it