No one has mentioned the GREEN.

In reply to Ranger50 :

And was that car not a bone stock Miata? What tires?

wae said:

One other thing - and, honestly, I've been harboring this for over a decade - was something I overheard from either the awards dinner or maybe it was the evening meet-and-greet on the Friday evening after whichever events used to happen on Friday.  As I was looking at the timing results that had been posted, there were two of the editorial staff standing nearby.  I overheard their conversation which was really negative towards the cars that were not at the upper end of the field.  It's been far too long to remember the exact words, but the gist of it was that this would be so much better if we didn't have these plain cars and daily drivers that people just brought down clogging up the works. 

Can't remember if it was 2011 or 2012, or if I was with you or not when you heard it, but I remember hearing the same thing.  It was definitely a part of why I took a hiatus from the challenge for a while.

On another note, though, I remember a few "incidents" in the past that make me think some budget exemptions for safety should be kept, or else a lot more effort will be needed during tech/safety inspections.

In reply to eastsideTim :

I'm not aware of any safety issue that has happened in the last 17 years that meant another rule needed to be written. 

Abiding by the NHRA (and SCCA) safety guidelines has always been a requirement. 
 

They needed better ENFORCEMENT, not more rules. 

I'm curious about something. I don't want this post to come off as inflammatory because it's genuine curiosity.

Monthly magazines distributed are what, 60-65 thousand(it's been a while since I read through the press kit)? What's the average challenge field, 60-75 teams? How many of those teams are forum members, a third, a half, more?

We've previously established there are about 400 regular posters to the board every month despite the circulation numbers. As an outsider looking in, this looks more like an event for the forum than anything else. What is stopping the subscribers from becoming forum members or participants?

So, currently we have a big editorial event, that costs money to run, but it's only attracting a fraction of a percent of readers to attend and compete. That is a problem, we can all understand that, especially if the content from the event isn't attracting more competitors or subscribers. 

I've not been. I paid a registration and bought a last minute entry car, then figured out I couldn't afford the trip there, and back, and room, food, booze, bribes, or emergency repairs, and that was the extent of it. Just saying that so my position as semi outsider is understood. I've watched the streams, followed the threads and discussions for a few years, offered help and advice where I can, but I haven't actually done it because even though it's a "cheap car challenge" it really isn't that cheap all told, especially if you're coming from the salt belt, Midwest, or further, and need to add days of towing to and from. 

Some things I've seen over the years that I thought could maybe be handled differently are the overly complicated rules, the minimal time for the yearly theme vehicle, and a lack of "tell me in one sentence what this thing is".

I wasn't around in the beginning, hell I was 12 and changing pullies on lawn tractors not caring about cars at all, but the first event, the $1500 challenge, seemed to hit all the buttons you're now trying to come back to. It was a unique event, it had a simple and concise set of parameters, and it got a lot of people talking, thinking, and ready to come play. 

From the sounds of things the rules got crazy, maybe part of that was related to sponsors, a necessary evil, and then everything was wiped clean and started fresh with Pers rule revisions. 

Seeing discussions and question threads on the forum the past couple of years, you almost need a lawyer to sort through the rules and find what you can and can't do, as well as what you can but probably shouldn't do, and the people that did follow along with that now have rules named after themselves. 

It no longer looks/feels like "you have $2000, go build the best looking, turning, accelerating thing you can". Maybe that's part of the problem?

The yearly theme. It is chosen and discussed at the challenge, and then revealed to the public within a week, to spend the next 50 weeks ish finding, fixing, building in hopes of finishing for the event. I personally love the idea, but think that maybe instead of picking for the next year, it should be for the year after. 

While the people here can be resourceful, and stubborn, about finding and getting deals, if you're trying to reach a larger audience that doesn't have the connections the forum members do, more time certainly couldn't hurt. Who wouldn't want more time to work on their car, but would adding the extra year help find more challenge friendly land yachts or aristocrat, or gastropod vehicles? That's also an extra year of promotion for the magazine, drumming up more interest, maybe articles every couple of months looking at the current themed buildthreads could help. 

I'm not going to go through the numbers myself, but it would be interesting to see how many vehicles are repeat attendees and how they fair year after year versus the people that bring a new platform every single year. 

I have no thoughts or ideas about "explain the event in one sentence". I don't think the current rulebook makes that feasible, but I do suspect that is holding people back.

I think maybe taking a year off to regroup with your "at every challenge" competitors, the editorial staff, and a marketing/PR firm would be more beneficial in the long run than patching rules together every year or holding drawn out discussions with the same handful of people. Figure out what works, what doesn't, and what used to work and why it doesn't anymore, and come back bigger than ever. 

Like I said in the beginning, not trying to be inflammatory or an ass, but trying to show maybe a different perspective. 

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

It had a spectre open air filter from summit. It ran on 205/50r14 nitto nt01's I got used from Patrick. I replaced the trans with a jy used one filled with ford manual trans spec unicorn pee. I purchased it with a 4.3 torsen diff, lowering springs, tokico shocks/struts. I also did a diff fluid and engine oil change. Brakes were some stock replacement cross drilled rotors with unknown pads. I had the local tire store put an alignment to it of my specs.

In reply to RevRico :

I agree with most of what you said, except the theme. 
 

Adding a year will only add to the procrastination. 

In reply to SV reX :

I agree. I have mixed feelings on it even though I just wrote it. 

We all know cars aren't getting any cheaper and specific types are getting harder to find period let alone at budget friendly prices, so I feel more time could help, but having the car sitting in the driveway the extra year could strain relationships or get people complacent with their work to just be disappointed when they finally run.

I love the themed cars ever year, they're a nice stand out, I would just like to see more of them, however that happens.

In reply to Ranger50 :

Perfect example in my mind of how to do the Challenge and not spend a lot. You finished 18th, top half of the field, in a stockish car and used half of the allowed budget. If someone were to replicate what you did and spend the extra $1000 to go faster they could readily be a top ten car for a real expenditure of $2K. This also illustrates one of my pet peeves and that's the fact that your car was almost as fast as the 7th place car, the difference being the concourse. I wish cars were ranked on time alone.

In reply to RevRico :

The themes cars are rarely top finishers, so I don't think they need more time. 
 

But you are definitely onto something.  People enjoy themes, and therefore advocating for them should increase attendance. 

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

If I had the grand, I would have added nitrous for a chance at most spectacular failure. 
But realistically, I'm a decent drag racer and that's where I picked up some additional time vs others.

In reply to SV reX :

Was it that long ago that a wheel came off a car on the autox?  I'm getting old.

So thought, and it could be a crack pipe one. If there's effectively 2 years for theme planning and preparation (which I have no issue with, the super bowl location is announced 2-3 years in advance) how about the host partner with a local trade school or maker space in having them prepare a vehicle that fits that class a year early, to serve as a precursor to the following year and to set the bar. The local trade school and/or maker space would produce the vehicle, but insight, direction and guidance could be provided by GRM staff which would provide for content and also motivation for others looking to compete within that theme a year later to not sit around and wait. 

I could be misguided in those potent benefits and the value brought from it. But I suspect that it'd help get the wheels turning with regards to build ideas and action. 

eastsideTim said:

In reply to SV reX :

Was it that long ago that a wheel came off a car on the autox?  I'm getting old.

It was 2007. It was my kids that were in the line of fire.
 

If the lugs had been tightened according to spec and according to NHRA requirements, it wouldn't have happened. No new rule was needed. 

DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

On a serious note......just a thought exercise, but people don't like exemptions because $2000 cars aren't really $2000 cars. I don't really like FMV either, and recoup has it's own set of issues for newbies. So, say I'm made the new Challenge event chairman and I say you need a $2500 car all in. No recoup, exemptions or FMV. You still need your safety gear to match the NHRA ET rules though. What would you bring?

In an hour of thinking about this I think my Corolla could still make it and be on road racing slicks  for the autocross and drag slicks for the drags. None of the tires would be brand new, I might have to drop the LS7 cam from the build and a couple of other non-performance items. I could also bring back my supercharged Miata on bigger wheels tires than last time.

What about you guys that have been before and understand the current rules well, what would you bring?....... and I'd also like to hear from folks who have never been. Would what I just proposed entice you to go?

It comes down to finding the right deals sometimes.  I raced the Zoomboni this year with an actual all-in real dollars out of pocket pricetag of under $2400 (including tires and safety equipment).  Nobody could touch it dynamically.

My Fiero cost $1000 actual dollars because it was a last minute deal for a 1987 GT with a 3800SC motor already swapped in and a truckload of spares and extras.  Discounting tires it'll be well under the $2000 budget and a 2500 lb car being shoved around by 380 torquey horsepowers should be at least respectable on track.

Even the 1992 Miata I just picked up for $600 wouldn't be entirely embarrassing.  I have a line on coilovers already for $400 and as we all know, a Miata is always the answer.

So I get it that it can be a daunting proposition to build a car capable of winning, but sometimes it takes a bit of luck and scooping up the deal when it comes along to have fun and even do well.

In reply to KyAllroad :

A lot of times, those really good deals require a leap of faith that everything will work once it is put back together.  Admittedly, I'm not as good at taking those leaps as a lot of other challengers.

Good tires have always been a financial burden to me so I chose to be the guy out there underperforming in a neat appearing car offering seat time to anyone who wants to drive it. Last year I bought a set of ridiculously cheap imported tires from Amazon and they were terrible and fantastic at the same time. It was like one of the Gran Turismo fully tuned cars running on OE tires.

Never let a set of tires deter you from having fun with our hobby. 

In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :

I'll never be at the pointy end... honestly my only goal is to get a rule named after me. Assuming I ever get my E36 M3 together, I have a way to do it. 

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

I'd buy the cheapest half budget luxury car with a 300+ V8. Strip 1000lbs out and roll my own cheap eBay springs to get it as low as possible. And then kick all the shiny. I know it'll work because I've done it before. 

It is somewhat ironic that Stampie chimed in prior to my being able to hop back on with additional thoughts. 

Focusing on increasing entries and attendance, there are two ways to do so well lessening the burden of the undertaking.

First, would be answering Stampie's call to join and already existing team that is fielding an entry. 

Second, would be to join together with a group of like-minded individuals within your region to share in a project together and then even if not everyone can get the time off of work to go down to attend the event, hopefully at least two or three could and share transportation and entry expenses. 

In addition to the second option, I also still really like the idea of local autocross subclasses to be able to utilize the vehicles more often throughout the year and if you have a team with multiple drivers autocrossing it locally the value obviously greatly increases. 

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Joining an existing team does not address the problem GRM is trying to solve.  They need more CARS entered to make ends meet. Joining an existing team just adds 1 more person to the banquet.  They charge for the food expenses, and nothing more.

It's an inexpensive way to get involved, but it doesn't help GRM.

So, ive been lurking. Reading and not reacting. 

I guess where my head is is this:

Are the rule changes to increase participation, reduce overhead, or both?

With a circulation of 20k subscribers, and thousands of people following on social media and emails, why not put together a simple survey of what keeps people from attending? Those of us here already get it, and have pur reasons. But the onter 20k people aren't. 

Survey monkey is free, if i remember correctly. Or, leverage the "subscribe now" infrastructure. Or....

I don't want to see the challenge disappear. But i do want ti see a return to a simpler time of "buy. Build, and run a legit $2000 race car in autocross, drags, and show with no freebies or inside deals"

SV reX said:

eastsideTim said:

In reply to SV reX :

Was it that long ago that a wheel came off a car on the autox?  I'm getting old.

It was 2007. It was my kids that were in the line of fire.
 

If the lugs had been tightened according to spec and according to NHRA requirements, it wouldn't have happened. No new rule was needed. 

It was 2008.  It was my rx7 that lost the wheel.  I torqued all the wheels to 80 prior to the event.

The lug bolts on the front wheel stripped out.  I have run studs on every car that came with lug bolts ever since.  

A v8 neon lost a wheel in 2012 in the drags.

I didn't get most spectacular failure in 2008 because someone rolled their car over in the parking lot of the track if I remember correctly.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

It is somewhat ironic that Stampie chimed in prior to my being able to hop back on with additional thoughts. 

Focusing on increasing entries and attendance, there are two ways to do so well lessening the burden of the undertaking.

First, would be answering Stampie's call to join and already existing team that is fielding an entry. 

Second, would be to join together with a group of like-minded individuals within your region to share in a project together and then even if not everyone can get the time off of work to go down to attend the event, hopefully at least two or three could and share transportation and entry expenses. 

 

In addition to the second option, I also still really like the idea of local autocross subclasses to be able to utilize the vehicles more often throughout the year and if you have a team with multiple drivers autocrossing it locally the value obviously greatly increases. 

Third option is to enter multiple vehicles.  I have brought two cars, three different times and the year we did pickup trucks I brought three.

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) said:

SV reX said:

eastsideTim said:

In reply to SV reX :

Was it that long ago that a wheel came off a car on the autox?  I'm getting old.

It was 2007. It was my kids that were in the line of fire.
 

If the lugs had been tightened according to spec and according to NHRA requirements, it wouldn't have happened. No new rule was needed. 

It was 2008.  It was my rx7 that lost the wheel.  I torqued all the wheels to 80 prior to the event.

The lug bolts on the front wheel stripped out.  I have run studs on every car that came with lug bolts ever since.  

A v8 neon lost a wheel in 2012 in the drags.

I didn't get most spectacular failure in 2008 because someone rolled their car over in the parking lot of the track if I remember correctly.

How would a rule change prevent that?

In reply to SV reX :

It would not have changed a thing.