No one has mentioned the GREEN.

An F1 car would struggle in autocross because their grip comes from aero and created downforce, they also produce more downforce, and thusly have more grip, under throttle or under braking. Driving an open wheel car with heavily developed aero forces you to relearn what you know about the friction circle, throwing a lot of what you've learned over the years out the window as it's the inverse of how they work. 

All that being said, though they'd probably do well due to power to weight, they wouldn't be able to put the power down nearly as effectively as one would likely expect at autocross speeds. 

If your going to hamstring the comparison with W2W series FIA World Rally Cross cars (and similar spec series) would destroy all challenge cars.

F1/Indycar/Nascar/LeMans cars simply aren't designed to transition at speeds and cornering angles appropriate for Autox.  They can be modified to do it an then there physical size would probably be a detriment.  GT3 cars may do okay as is provided the chassis has sufficient steering lock.

But it's a really wierd comparison to ignore the Dozens of recognized motorsport rule sets that define Classes for timed Solo competitions that aren't W2W when comparing them to Challenge cars.  W2W road course use isn't part of the challenge and most challenge cars wouldn't be good at it anyway.   Solo competition is where most Challenge cars would get used so speed comparisons to SCCA Prepared and Modified classes seem more appropriate.  It's unlikely a F1 car is going to show up and run the challenge as a demo but it's very likely a competive D/Emod car, a CSP Miata, or a SSM car will show up.   

Oh, also drift cars.

 I still remember in college when a semi-pro drifter who was friends with another autocrosser showed up to an event.  It was your basic SR20 240 circa 2004.  I kind of snickered to myself thinking that it wouldn't perform that well and may end up getting beat by a low spect ST car.  That guy, on street tires, cleaned house.  Destroyed the entire field by several seconds.  And that car could definitely rip of 12s at the strip with no issue.... way back when drift cars weren't nearly as insane as they are now.

^ but according to the driver's meeting of every autocross I've ever been to drifts, drifting, drifters, and drift cars are subhuman morons who only exist to kill the innocent and ruin motorsport as a whole while being slow and kicking puppies... 

If we keep this thread going long enough we might just trip over the reason why our little slice of motorsport has the biggest problem keeping new people around

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Stampie pointed that out 2 pages ago,

"I like how Tom said hey no slicks.  Then said ok we'll rethink that but we need more teams to make the Challenge work.  That turned into 16 pages of rules tossing around."

Make it 18 and counting. I'm as guilty as anyone with regards to suggesting ideas for increased participation, I have no issue in playing by whatever rules are set forth though. 

Byrneon27 said:

^ but according to the driver's meeting of every autocross I've ever been to drifts, drifting, drifters, and drift cars are subhuman morons who only exist to kill the innocent and ruin motorsport as a whole while being slow and kicking puppies... 

Isn't that directed at people who just want to go out on course and goof off while wiping out 80% of the cones and endangering others?   To be fair, most driver's meetings I have been to just lump that into a general 'dont be a dick rule'

I don't think driving with some well controlled slip angle is frowned upon in most regions, especially if you are setting some of the fastest times.

My experience is different and I'll add that nobody that's ever received a "talking to" at an event I was present at was out of control and nobody that's binned it was given a talking to before hand. 

Regardless this isn't the point of the thread and yes we're well off topic. 

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

Tom why did the nearly monthly features of challenge cars I remember from the early days of my subscription stop? 

Byrneon27 said:

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

from 2009 to 2019 i did not challenge because i had other priorities.  from 2019 to present i have not challenged because i'm not nearly as efficient a builder as i thought i would be.

Byrneon27 said:

My experience is different and I'll add that nobody that's ever received a "talking to" at an event I was present at was out of control and nobody that's binned it was given a talking to before hand. 

Regardless this isn't the point of the thread and yes we're well off topic. 

 

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

 

Tom why did the nearly monthly features of challenge cars I remember from the early days of my subscription stop? 

Like Angry, life has happened, and I am not always able to bring an entry.   No amount of rules changes or tire limitations would have changed it for me. 
 

To your question about features of Challenge cars... yeah, that's why I keep asking about the value of the editorial content to GRM. I simply don't see that many articles anymore. It feels like the event is struggling, and they are keeping it alive because they like it (or like us).  Not because the editorial content has value.

That's not enough.  And it's not attractive for me to bring an entry.  
 

Byrneon27 said:

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

I stopped post-2012 partly due to other commitments, and partially due to the derision directed at the non-radical builds.  I've been back since 2017 on occasion, accepting being a backmarker, more to hang out with everyone and hit a drag strip without some of the typical attendees.  It also helps that I have family in FL, so I can combine the trip.  Until I am retired, it is unlikely I'll have time and motivation to try to build anything competitive, and even then, I may only have time, not the motivation.

In reply to SV reX :

So, I've brought this up the mid Atlantic contingency and now I'll ask the question here. 

If we, as competitors, added a charitable element to the challenge, how much greater value and or exposure for the event would it provide? After seeing the number of fun runs taken at the autocross this past year in the escort, it hatched the idea in my mind of a $5 donation for a fun run, having a handful of sponsors offer their goods to create a gift offering and to have the sponsors match the charitable contributions raised, And for them to provide decals for compensation for the amount of the decals to represent them on the vehicle as long as they are not in conflict with the event sponsor required decals. 

The amount may not sound like much. However if you get three or four sponsors to multiply the amount raised by three or 400% and You have promotion of the event shared across the sponsors and charity or non profit chosen to benefit social media platforms, then you have something. I've been in communication with a handful of partners on both the sponsorship side and the charity to potentially benefit side. I've also been in touch with MPT, which is located in my home county, about the endeavor, and there is some intrigue on their end. 

Marketing the event isn't solely the responsibility of the host. Some are great at creating content on YouTube and getting it out there, though there's often an overlap which the population here. But if you can get people who support an animal rescue, medical care cause, program for persons at risk, or whatever the charitable cause is curious about it, then you will have actually broken through to a new market with regards to exposure, as opposed to banging the same drum to the same audience. 

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I've tried to run my entry for charity a couple times. Didn't get too far. 
 

Honestly, I hear a pretty clear mixed message from GRM on who they are targeting. Tom said earlier in this thread that he wants to expand the entries by getting more current readers to build entries, but they defend consistently (and I think rightly) that their readership is not just a bunch of cheapasses building low budget cars. 
 

Challenge entrants are not the target audience of GRM advertisers. That's a problem. 

It appears to me (as an outsider who doesn't know crap about magazine publication) that the event was wonderful for generating editorial content 20 years ago, but the publication has grown and has many, many more sources of editorial content that meet the needs of their target (more lucrative) magazine audience. 
 

GRM is so much more than the Challenge, and I'm not convinced this event has the same priority any more. 
 

but I could be...

Nocones said

"I would love to see what speed gap money gets.  It's important though to recognize how hard it is to get incremental gains in speed and not make a big deal if the gap isn't as big as you'd expect.  Look at PAX for HS vs SS a competive car in HS is about $15k in SS it can be as much as $180K.  That 10x price increase buys you on average a 3.5% faster lap time."

I happened to be looking at PAX factors the other night, just to see what the gaps might be and ,frankly, I was very surprised at how low the gaps were for 60 second runs. I'm a former autocrosser and I guess forgetting how close things really were. I think having a couple of benchmark entries for us to compare to would be interesting. There must be a decent CSP Miata in northern Florida who could come to compare to. 

I was doing the comparisons because I'm guessing my Corolla would be something like an E-mod car and I'd get my ass handed to me at an SCCA event.

In reply to SV reX :

So my question is, and I'm asking this knowing that none of us are in the position to answer it, is whether hosting multiple individual events versus a single event at a larger track facility and turning it into a family friendly celebration of all things amateur motorsports the answer? UTTC, Challenge and vintage racing (Mitty) goodness all into one. Think Gridlife meets Solo Nats. 

I would expect the hurdle to be to capture all the editorial content over the course of said week. Especially as, even if you aren't looking to capture as much content from various aspects, you often don't know what the developing story is, unless you're capturing nearly all of it. 

The question is, would the ability to promote, market and generate sponsorship revenue increase at positive ratio versus cost and labor. And would attendance and participation increase and could things like keynote speakers and round table decisions be had. I mean having Randy Pobst talk about transitioning from autocrossing to going wheel to wheel racing at such a weekend would be outstanding. Would such a larger event generate attention from digitally focused media outlets? 

In short, would it create a larger overall impact versus budget and effort that would make it benefitual even if it would entail a venue change. 

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Those are all nice questions. Things GRM may want to consider. 
 

They aren't exactly our problem as participants. It's GRM's decision want they want to host (and what editorial content they hope it will create). It's our job to build.

I love contributing creative ideas. But I recognize the decisions are not mine. 
 

Your ideas are very interesting, but MUCH too big to process. My question is really simple. It's a yes or no question that GRM needs to answer.... Does the Challenge meet their needs, or is it obsolete?

After they make that decision, I think all of the other ideas (like the ones you are suggesting) are on the table. First, it's yes or no. 

Maybe the magazine needs to do an article on a car that's reachable for just about anybody.  Like for example an 85 Buick Riviera that beat ~1/3 of the field this year with a simple interior strip, wheel/tire change, and last minute 100 shot of nitrous.  I know that my teammates and I had a berkeleying fun time and can talk E36 M3 months later without a single trophy.  Cause we kicked some ass with a POS car.  Show the people reading the mag but saying no way can I do that, yes you can do that.

SV reX said:

Byrneon27 said:

My experience is different and I'll add that nobody that's ever received a "talking to" at an event I was present at was out of control and nobody that's binned it was given a talking to before hand. 

Regardless this isn't the point of the thread and yes we're well off topic. 

 

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

 

Tom why did the nearly monthly features of challenge cars I remember from the early days of my subscription stop? 

Like Angry, life has happened, and I am not always able to bring an entry.   No amount of rules changes or tire limitations would have changed it for me. 
 

To your question about features of Challenge cars... yeah, that's why I keep asking about the value of the editorial content to GRM. I simply don't see that many articles anymore. It feels like the event is struggling, and they are keeping it alive because they like it (or like us).  Not because the editorial content has value.

That's not enough.  And it's not attractive for me to bring an entry.  
 

That's an interesting point - I remember the staff taking time in 2006? with the two Spitfires and setting up a photo shoot at the event and getting story info. I seem to recall that taking place for multiple entries and was kind of hoping that the story around my 'not Challenge legal' NC Miata would make for good editorial content instead of a couple sentences in a spotter's guide (if at all... since the car was Exhibition classed)
Maybe with the changes, the staff is so tight running the event that they aren't able to take the time needed to get the stories the way it happened back then. Or maybe I've just missed that happening.

So in thinking about the past 2 years specifically, I wouldn't gauge the commitment to the challenge to our host based upon the amount of editorial content it has provided. The fact that they have made the changes in concessions necessary to put on the event the past 2 years shows the commitment to it regardless of the amount of editorial content. And knowing that they can get half of an issue, or 5% of their yearly printed content from the event, in a world where you don't know what events are going to be going on with confidence until a month prior to them occurring, and you're likely running out of evergreen content to print, I suspect that it's potential value has not diminished. However the quality of the content to be featured or highlighted falls upon us. Then you have to factor in the degree of difficulty of putting on such an event. Gainesville is not in GRM's backyard. It's close enough that it's not difficult to get there, but it's far enough away that when you're working long days setting up breaking down, doing scoring, tech, check in and gathering editorial content and photography and video and editing, that you're not going back home in the evening you're staying on site. That is a strenuous work weekend for the staff. Realistically relocating the event, And I don't mean to increase participation out of convenience for entries, I mean if it was to be done as part of a "mega" event, would only add the travel time and logistics into the fray for the host. They're already packing up everything bringing it on site and working remotely for the extended weekend. 

With regards to quality of potential editorial content. When writing or highlighting aspects of your build, assume that you have a curious 6-year-old asking you, why? Why did you select that chassis? Why did you select that fuel type? Why did you go with an aspect or entity or component of that suspension? Why did you go with that engine management? Why did you go with that form of forced induction? Why did you do that engine swap? 

And then follow up with yourself how you did all of those things, where did you source the components, how you made them work, what hurdles there were, what you would have done differently, And what you would like to do going forward with the project. 

I myself am guilty of not having broken down my project in that manner, but it's a formula of it if followed pretty much provides enough insight to just about any build or project to make them intriguing enough to read about. 

Byrneon27 said:

 

Former challengers reading this be brutality honest why do you not field an entry any longer? 

 

Tom why did the nearly monthly features of challenge cars I remember from the early days of my subscription stop?

In 2017 my car was pulled aside for a photo shoot, i was asked all the questions, JG spent a lot of time with a camera in my face for the live stream, and I finished 3rd.  As challenge car articles trickled out, mine never came.  That was extremely disheartening for me and mutilated my desire to go all in anymore. 

In reply to Patrick :

Mine was worse. 
 

In 2015 I spent an entire year with one goal in mind... I wanted a cover photo. Perhaps that was unrealistic, but that was my goal. 
 

I chose to build the car with a combination theme of the 787B (the only Japanese car to ever win LeMans- a difficult livery), and humor specific to the forum. We had team uniforms, PowerPoint  presentations, the whole she-bang. I thought it was a slam-dunk for editorial content.

No staff member did a photo shoot. No one talked with me about the car. 
 

It won 3rd overall, and everyone who has seen it thought it was amazing, but no editorial content at all.

Yes, it was disheartening. 

ProDarwin said:

Byrneon27 said:

^ but according to the driver's meeting of every autocross I've ever been to drifts, drifting, drifters, and drift cars are subhuman morons who only exist to kill the innocent and ruin motorsport as a whole while being slow and kicking puppies... 

Isn't that directed at people who just want to go out on course and goof off while wiping out 80% of the cones and endangering others?   To be fair, most driver's meetings I have been to just lump that into a general 'dont be a dick rule'

I don't think driving with some well controlled slip angle is frowned upon in most regions, especially if you are setting some of the fastest times.

SV reX said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Does the Challenge meet their needs, or is it obsolete?

I have faith that GRM will tell us if/when the Challenge is obsolete. Please stop repeating this question and implying that it is or even might be. 

Lof8 - Andy said:

SV reX said:

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

Does the Challenge meet their needs, or is it obsolete?

I have faith that GRM will tell us if/when the Challenge is obsolete. Please stop repeating this question and implying that it is or even might be. 

No problem. 
 

But then it's difficult for me to answer whether or not I will be fielding an entry. 
 

It has been posed as a business issue. It would be helpful to know if the business issue is the stated purpose of the event or not. 
 

As Patrick and I have both said, the editorial content seems to be giving a different message, which is disheartening. 
 

Im sad that a simple yes or no question seems to be so hard for everyone. Like Patrick, I will back out of participating in further rules discussions. 

I know COVID threw a wrinkle into things last year, but if the size of the field and level of effort involved in putting on the event are the key drivers, maybe it would make more sense as an every other year event, rewarding people who need more prep time and leaving procrastinators right where they are now. More people (might?) come with more prep time. For annual programs such as GA Tech, this might be a turn off, since they seem to be geared towards the annual cadence.

I love the annual cadence and have been present 3 of the past 4 years fielding a vehicle or actively with a team. But this might be a middle path if needed. It would cut the magazine's investment in half and/or allow dedicating staff towards additional photo shoots and information gathering. I have plans for 2022 and 2023 vehicles (one with a new HS participant, and the next that has a reasonable chance to finish in the top 10 if it works out) 

As far as the previous years where photos were taken and notes gathered for specific entries, I do know that at least some people at Carlisle and other events are willing to pay for event photos and the like - I loved every photo posted for my #25 car this year and would be willing to pay an additional fee for a digital copy of all event photos (for personal use at least; possibly with different licensing / costs if it would be used for anything else?) including or featuring my vehicle.

I get that would involve additional staff work tagging all the photos to include car numbers (work that might already be taking place as overhead) but might also fund the categorization of event media to make more articles more producable for the magazine.