No one has mentioned the GREEN.

Could we have America's favorite tire tester compare R888Rs in a 13" size to the best 15" 200TW stuff?  I am sympathetic to the 13" rim issue particularly on older cars and think a reasonable approach would be to allow 100TW on 13" rims only <225mm width or something like that. 

Given the prevalent street use of R888rs I have my doubts that they are faster then the "Go to" street/ST tires.

I know more rules aren'y usually better then less but this seems like a reasonable thing for several planned challenge cars.   

maschinenbau said:

I'm actually kinda pissed about this. This change makes my build a lot more expensive and difficult, because I am planning the entire build around using stock (AKA free in budget) 13" wheels up front.

Guess how many tires are available in 185/60R13 or 205/60R13? Exactly 2: either 100tw Proxes R888R (which most Lotus Europa owners run on the street) or Hoosier R7. Or I can stance-stretch a trailer tire on them. Now I can't use the extremely rare Lotus-specific-lug-pattern mag wheels at the Challenge, period. I will be forced into buying extremely expensive wheels of different diameter, or having to machine and re-lug the original hubs, plus buying new wheels. I have been planning this for over a year. 

Why wasn't there a town hall on this rule change before making it?

I feel your pain on 13s. I'm in the exact same boat with the x1/9 I have. 13s have a7/r7 and r888s, and then also trailer tires. Not much in between. Nothing good at 200tw for sure.

It's just not how changes have been done in the past. Usually there's a town hall meeting about a rule change, and if there's agreement, then another 2 years until that rule change takes effect.

When I won in 2019 on sticker Hoosier A7's, the next month I dismounted and sold them for 2/3 of what I originally paid. Good luck selling used 200TW's at the end of autocross season, when those compounds change on an annual basis. 

It's also not fair to single out autocross. New drag slicks are expensive too so let's just run the whole event on Uniroyal Tiger Paws. I thiiiiink Tire Rack has a size I can stretch on my 13x5.5's...

In reply to maschinenbau :

May as well chase everyone else away by taking away drag slicks and running 200tw there too 

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Right there with you this morning. 

Hell, i started collecting parts months ago. 

End of the day, its still something i want to own after the challenge, but im not sure I'll take it to the challenge. Which is sad, because the amc build is EXACTLY what the challenge should be, and has been about. Building a competitive car, with many motorsports applications, with cheap parts and sweat equity. Im taking a rusty, parted ou, and used up race car and getting a logbook for hillclimbs with it, and using it fir my competition licence. On a challenge budget. I had planned to do challenge and utcc with the exact same car, in the exact same state, on the exact same tires to prove the validity and purpose of the challenge as something other than one trick pony. 

But, that does not seem to be the direction that they want to take it. Im not sure WHAT direction they want to go, but iys not one thats really interesting me or inspiring me at the moment, if im honest with myself. 

Pretty surprised at the negative comments. 

I understand the frustration about recent purchases but that's always a danger if you start a build before the rules are announced. 

It sounds like the purpose of the rule is to encourage growth of the event and to get new people into motorsport. I love seeing crazy builds with $1500 worth of tires but I get why a new comer wouldn't want to compete against them.

As a new competitor figuring out tires was a huge PITA. I felt like I had to show up with A7s on huge wheels for the event to even be worth it, and that sucked. They were a bitch to buy, store, and modify the car for as well.

Tom Suddard said:

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

Wtf?!?! I spent $1400 on Purple Crack!

And that's the root of this change. I want more people to the attend the event, and requiring a $1400 set of tires to be competitive is a huge barrier.

You'd still be welcome to run the Hoosiers in exhibition. 

Hi Tom,

Are there other considerations behind the 200tw rule? I could easily see there might be insurance/site/safety considerations at play here, and if so we can deal with that of course. There may also be sponsor considerations I guess, but you probably can't get into too much detail there. 

So far, I have only heard the above consideration which is lowering the barrier to entry. I understand that and approve - I really want more teams at the challenge too. However, after thinking about this overnight (at first blush I sorta liked the rule, but have changed my mind), I personally feel that a 200tw rule doesn't achieve the stated goal. Here's why:

• The challenge is the premier (the only?) "Bang for Buck" event in the world. Competitors are attracted because we want to play the bang for buck game. Any TW limit type rule forces competitors to spend money on slower tires. Bang for Buck competitors (existing and new) won't love shelling out for something they know is suboptimal. 
• I don't think of Sticker A7s as a barrier for many, it was not a barrier to me when I started running the challenge. I ran the challenge one time (2015) on sticker A7 tires. Every year since I have run used race tires. I have spent less on tires, improved my times, and improved finishing position. I'm clearly not alone here, and every time someone asks a question about challenge tires and I happen to be in earshot, I plug the hell out of the 2 used racing tire vendors in the back of your mag. I don't think there are similar vendors for used 200tw tires. 
• A TW limit makes it feel more like rule games that many challenge competitors want to escape. Any TW limitation is going to artificially benefit some competitors and hurt others. (as stated, 200TW really burns anyone with 13 inch wheels, for example). Any change will do it again. This is why the SCCA struggles so mightily with it. Many new challenge competitors have autox experience, and many of us relish the opportunity to build creatively without having to play the SCCA's rule games.  

So, if we're trying to lower the barrier to entry, maybe we can get one of your used racing tire advertisers to put up a link or a phone number right on the challenge website? Maybe right in the rules where they talk about tires?

But again, I understand there may be other considerations behind this that I don't understand yet. 

CrustyRedXpress said:

I love seeing crazy builds with $1500 worth of tires but I get why a new comer wouldn't want to compete against them.

As a new competitor figuring out tires was a huge PITA. I felt like I had to show up with A7s on huge wheels for the event to even be worth it, and that sucked. They were a bitch to buy, store, and modify the car for as well.

I'm really sorry (and surprised!) that you feel that way. I'd be interested to go back and look at the winners over the last 5-10 years and I bet most are running race tires but few bought them new. 

If there was one thing I could tell any prospective participant it would be to have them call a used race tire guy (from the back of the mag) and tell them what wheel size they had and what they were trying to do. They'd have nearly the best possible tires for about $300 shipped to their door. 

Unfortunately now with a ruleset growing around tires, I fear that figuring out tires for new competitors will only be worse. 

Last night I also had a thought:

Who is going to check the TW ratings? Tech inspectors at the track? What happens when someone who doesn't understand TW ratings shows up with the hot 140TW autox street tire? Are we gonna have to protest each other? Watch each other in the pits when people are swapping wheels and tires?

I do think there is a pretty significant logistical challenge to trying to enforce this kind of rule.

If you want to run 200TW, you can be plenty competitive on them. I got 4th in autocross on 200TW (ahead of Vette-carts on slicks)...in a Toyota Avalon with nothing but weight reduction and spring chop. BUT...they were 315's, which foreshadows what it will take to be competitive at the Challenge. The fastest cars will adapt to run ridiculously expensive CAM-sized "200TW" totally-street-wink-wink tires. 

Okay, I feel a little more backstory/explanation is in order here. 

We're a business, and we need to make money in order to survive. That's especially true in the current environment, when every cost seems to be increasing all the time.

In order to keep happening, the $2000 Challenge needs to make money, too. Sure, it's an editorial exercise, but it's also an extremely disruptive (and expensive) event that draws a huge amount of resources from the rest of the organization, and has a high opportunity cost.

As a point of reference, I ran the numbers from this year's $2000 Challenge. We effectively paid all of you to join us at the event, while working for free. And while I sincerely love most/all of you, that arrangement is not sustainable as a business.

Assuming no costs increase to host the event (they will), and the same number of cars attend in 2022, we'd need to average $448 in revenue per car to break even just on the event's hard costs, before we factor in the months of staff time and salaries it takes to plan and host the event. Nobody wants a $700 entry fee without even getting a T-shirt.

What's all this have to do with tires?

We need to spread the costs of hosting the Challenge out over more cars. Refocusing the event on 200tw tires opens up the potential pool of entries, and should bring more people, as well as new people, into the event to join the party.

I don't buy the argument that Hoosiers are cheaper, either. A number of people have already posted that they buy new Hoosiers to be competitive--so comparing used tires really isn't realistic.

Let's take a 225/45R17, which is a very fair average size based on this year's Challenge field.

Hoosiers are $339/tire from TireRack.com:

Our last 200tw tire test showed the Falken Azenis RT660 was the fastest choice on a well-built CRX, which approximates the average Challenge car very well. That tire costs $164.07/tire. It will also be more resilient than a Hoosier.

For an event focused on racing cheaply, I struggle to see how a switch to 200tw tires is against that mission, or how it would decrease the number of attendees at the event.

There's also those costs to consider: If the $2000 Challenge is run primarily on 200tw tires, 200tw tire companies are suddenly interested in sponsoring it. That's another potential path to offsetting that $700 entry fee.

So, let's chat timing: As the front-runners in this thread have already posted, they're willing to spend thousands to have the top tire if it means a shot at the win. If we delay this rule change by a year, it will just mean the teams most willing to spend cash on Hoosiers will have an easy victory vs. those preparing for 2023. Putting the Hoosiers into exhibition is a more appropriate fit.

I know this change isn't what everybody wanted, but it's the clearest path I see towards being able to continue hosting the event. I am reading, digesting, and weighing every bit of feedback I receive, though.

Thanks, everybody.

This is the 200tw tire to run (unless you can fit the 355/30-19)  https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+V720+ACR&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=925YR9V720ACR&tab=Specs

Good thing they aren't $1400/set 

Oops... forgot to ban the Viper tires. Hold please....

It's not the rule change, it's the implementation immediately that is upsetting after giving previous rule changes time before taking effect.  I think you're looking at the wrong place to attract more people.  But that's your call not mine.  If the challenge dies whatever, not my baby, but there are a LOT of people, myself included, that ONLY found GRM because of the challenge.  Will I miss the people?  Yes certainly, yourself(tom) included.  Will I go on with my life and keep building cool stuff cheap?  Absolutely.  Will I leave the forum or stop subscribing?  Hell no.  

In reply to Tom Suddard :

You should at least give us more than 10 months until the rule is enforced. You also just effectively banned wheels smaller than 15". Very grassroots...

The used 200TW market does not exist in a fraction of the capacity that used slicks do. This year's winner won on 4-year-old tires. 

But to your main issue - I don't think it's accurate to blame attendance on tires. For the most part, the general car enthusiast world has not even heard of this event. That's what I gathered by taking a stickered-up Challenge-winning car to car shows.

maschinenbau said:

If you want to run 200TW, you can be plenty competitive on them. I got 4th in autocross on 200TW (ahead of Vette-carts on slicks)...in a Toyota Avalon with nothing but weight reduction and spring chop. BUT...they were 315's, which foreshadows what it will take to be competitive at the Challenge. The fastest cars will adapt to run ridiculously expensive CAM-sized "200TW" totally-street-wink-wink tires. 

The CAM sized 200tw tires show up for sale used fairly often. Not sure how we are jamming 315/335-18s under fenders. I think we all just need to change our search settings. 
 

 Hopefully Tom can find us a few bigger sponsors which will be easier if he can find more people to participate. 

I do agree with everyone that it is hard to make a rule change this big in such a short time period to adopt it. I mean I'm sitting on multiple sets of hoosiers that their only hope was challenge use. One of the hard part for people to get passed that I have talked to about the event is how a lot of the top cars seem to be one trick ponies that don't really qualify into another class of racing well. 

I'm pro-200tw rule for a few reasons.

1) 200tw options are popular, marketable and there are plenty of options and units available. That creates value and sponsorship opportunities for our host, and if you have the right local channels, possibly a local tire distributor for your individual build. 

2) using the vehicle to campaign at local autocross events. Even though most challenge builds would eligible to run R compounds in their classes locally due to other build aspects, they would likely be outclassed due to budget of .  

3) driving the chassis improves performance via familiarity. Seat time makes us better. A 200tw that someone can get a season's worth of runs out of locally allows for more enjoyment of the project and exposure for the event. 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Bringing on a tire company as a major sponsor for the event(again) definitely seems like a win to me. However I think there could be a way to make 2022 a transition year that would accomplish your goals, as well as not leave any competitors next year out of $1400 HoHos...

You already have the street tire class, but what if it was updated a bit to be on par with the open class. Take the highest total dynamic score for competitors with 200tw autox tires and give them an equivalent award/prize package to the highest dynamic score on race tires. Essentially ending up with 2 winning teams for 2022. 

It shouldn't cost GRM much if anything extra, since it's the same number of trophies & the sponsors provide the prizes. 

I'm not sure I explicitly said it, but I need to make this clear:

The alternative to fundamentally changing the event is not that things stay the same. We need to find a path to sustainability for the Challenge.

Serious question, can we just convert my challenge registration balance to x months of grm+ membership?  

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Serious question, was the Challenge this much of a loss maker before COVID?

In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :

Sure, if that's what you'd like to do. Just let me know.

Javelin said:

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Serious question, was the Challenge this much of a loss maker before COVID?

Absolutely. We've just looked the other way for years because we have a huge love for the event we've built. No sane company would have continued hosting the Challenge without at least 75 cars in attendance. Heck, no local sports car club would have continued hosting the Challenge. We actually lost more money back when we hosted the catered banquet. 

If I can use a metaphor: COVID put pressure on every area of the ship we're sailing, and that made the leaky joints and rotten boards in this ship more noticeable, and more dangerous. We've been working diligently to fix them all before we raise any new sails.

To be clear: I'm only salty because I already bought tires. MonZora will be at the pointy end of the field regardless.

Someone else brought up a good point though. Why allow drag slicks? When does GRM cover drag racing, outside of the Challenge?

When I get the car done, I'm bringing it, on whatever are the best tires under that year's rules.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

To be frank: Telling everybody that $2000 cars run 9-second quarter mile times is super cool, and helps promote the event. Plus, a competitive drag tire setup is cheaper and lasts longer than a set of autocross slicks.