In my humble opinion, the pro driver runs in the over budget classes should be instructor runs and not count as an official timed run. Last year in GTW I lost the 1st place $500 to a pro driver in a competitors car. This year the top 2 spots in GTW where driven by pro drivers. I tried to "level the playing field" using a pro but he coned the run away. If clean I would have won. I get using one of the guys to set the bar and show us what our cars are capable of but those should not count toward placement. I came away feeling pretty horrible about using a wringer to be competitive. The format makes perfect sense for the under budget competitors, but the over budget classes should rely on the driver and the their car. Please consider this format change for 2024.
I thought at the 22 Town Hall we discussed this and pro drivers weren't going to drive the unlimited cars.
Pro drivers are for the weak! Win it yourself!
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
Wanna join my team?
My kid started in a popular series for beginning drivers. Unfortunately there were no rules against hotshots from the higher classes racing, and for our special that year they all came back in borrowed cars to make some cash. My 15 year old with two races under his belt was black flagged for driving too slow (in comparison). I was unhappy to say the least.
Mike_Simmons said:
In my humble opinion, the pro driver runs in the over budget classes should be instructor runs and not count as an official timed run. Last year in GTW I lost the 1st place $500 to a pro driver in a competitors car. This year the top 2 spots in GTW where driven by pro drivers. I tried to "level the playing field" using a pro but he coned the run away. If clean I would have won. I get using one of the guys to set the bar and show us what our cars are capable of but those should not count toward placement. I came away feeling pretty horrible about using a wringer to be competitive. The format makes perfect sense for the under budget competitors, but the over budget classes should rely on the driver and the their car. Please consider this format change for 2024.
Thanks for voicing your thoughts on this. I am sure it would have been a lively discussion in the town hall.
Traditionally the Challenge has been a builder's competition, so the drivers are there to level the field like you said. That doesn't guarantee a clean run every time, but usually given 3 runs in a row they can pull something awesome out of any car. E36 M3 happens though, and that's racing. Sorry it happened to you.
Stampie said:
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
Wanna join my team?
You know, that's an interesting proposition. My main gripe competing against the pro drivers is they get to drive the course 50 times through the day, fine tuning apexes and difficult portions of the course, while I've got to try and get it perfect in 6 tries. Being a driver on a 2nd team would give me more looks at the track.
I was able to drop half a second from my best competition run to my last fun run.
What about non-pro driven cars getting a couple of extra runs?
ralleah
PowerDork
5/29/23 9:03 p.m.
hobiercr said:
What about non-pro driven cars getting a couple of extra runs?
Maybe the budget$ cars get (4) pro runs, and the over cars get (2) pro runs? That wouldn't require more runs or AX time vs currently I'd think?
Lof8 - Andy said:
Stampie said:
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
Wanna join my team?
You know, that's an interesting proposition. My main gripe competing against the pro drivers is they get to drive the course 50 times through the day, fine tuning apexes and difficult portions of the course, while I've got to try and get it perfect in 6 tries. Being a driver on a 2nd team would give me more looks at the track.
I was able to drop half a second from my best competition run to my last fun run.
Sounds like a yes and actually I've seen this done before. What size T-shirt do you wear?
In reply to Lof8 - Andy :
And that's how a deal gets done. I'll make a new batch of T-shirts before next Challenge.
Mr_Asa
UltimaDork
5/29/23 10:05 p.m.
hobiercr said:
What about non-pro driven cars getting a couple of extra runs?
Considering how well the autox went this year with the paid course workers and the amount of fun runs I saw, I think this might be an easy implementation.
In reply to Stampie :
The complaint then was a lack of available pro drivers, so we solved it this year by hiring more of them.
And I wouldn't have a problem with banning pro drivers from over budget cars--does anybody have objections?
Tom Suddard said:
And I wouldn't have a problem with banning pro drivers from over budget cars--does anybody have objections?
No objection here! Although you could do it like SCCA instructor runs, those runs just don't count and the competitors loose that run. Throw an INSTRUCTOR magnet on the car and code 600 in timing, done. Or just ban them, I'm personally fine with that too.
As far as the pros getting 50 runs, yes that's true.
50 runs, back to back in various cars, none with AC in the Florida heat, most ill or erratically handling, all ready to reach out and and bite them for the slightest miss.
My proposal"
AUTOCROSS OVERALL FTD: Trophy
FASTEST OVER$: $100 Sponsor bucks, Polo shirt that says "My car is faster than a field of $2000 race cars"
FASTEST UNDER$: $500 Sponsor bucks/physical gift, trophy
DRAG OVERALL LOW ET: Trophy
DRAG OVERALL HIGH MPH: Trophy
LOW ET OVER$: $100 Sponsor bucks, Polo shirt that says "My car is faster than a field of $2000 race cars"
LOW ET UNDER$: $500 Sponsor bucks/physical gift, trophy
(Updating as I can)
Tom Suddard said:
And I wouldn't have a problem with banning pro drivers from over budget cars--does anybody have objections?
Do it. The over budget cars are essentially exhibition anyway with no concours etc. most of them didn't even come back sunday, they're just coming to play. It would make it easier on the pro drivers, and after all it is the $2000 challenge.
If an over-budget car wants a pro to drive to see what they can wring out of it they can do it in the fun runs.
How about a designated 100% rookie driver? Instead of a pro, you put a completely inexperienced driver in the cars and see what a bad driver can pull off. Just kidding, kinda. Maybe.
Was the GT4 Porsche's time set by a pro or the owner? I'm not fussy on a non-budget car getting to set the fastest combined time for the hundred points and potentially upsetting the finishing order in the budget class. Not allowing pro drivers might negate that issue. I should recalculate the results for the budget cars as a standalone group and see if it even matters.
Patrick said:
Tom Suddard said:
And I wouldn't have a problem with banning pro drivers from over budget cars--does anybody have objections?
Do it. The over budget cars are essentially exhibition anyway with no concours etc. most of them didn't even come back sunday, they're just coming to play. It would make it easier on the pro drivers, and after all it is the $2000 challenge.
FWIW, most of the missing over budget car drivers did come back to the awards ceremony--they just came at 3pm, when it was originally scheduled, instead of 1.5 hours early when it actually happened. They were gracious and apologetic for not showing up to support everybody.
