Town Hall/ Rule Proposals

MrJoshua said:

SV reX said:

So, if I get the "Free Europa" for $0 and it comes with a good chassis that's worth $2000, I can recoup the entire $2000 (even though I paid nothing for it)?

I would be fine with that. 

I would be fine with it too. 
 

However, the last time the line item recoup was lifted (accidentally) and only the total recoup was considered, I asked that exact question and was told, "Oh no, wait a minute... No, no.  That's not what we meant at all". And the rule was quickly changed.

Im just trying to understand.  Whatever the rules are, that's what I build to. Not my circus. 

Bump for Tom. 

You'd be unable to do anything with the pricey transmission once you've fully recouped the purchase price of the car it came in.

However, if you're treating it like that, it sounds like you're referring to a heterogeneous parts lot, which is discussed in the rules. That would mean each item on the car has a value and therefore a recoup limit. But this is an intentionally difficult and time consuming process in order to limit its use and promote simpler budgets.

I'm open to removing the per-item recoup limit to simplify the event, as long as that wouldn't cause unintended consequences. Would it open up any wild loopholes? 

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Removing the per-item recoup limit effectively allows negative budget Challenge cars again.

The loophole it opened for me was it added $1000 to my budget. By the current rules, it would add $2000. 
 

I owned the "free Europa" at that time, and it had been legitimately acquired for $0. That means I couldn't recoup anything because it would exceed the  individual recoup.

But it had a good chassis underneath, which could have been sold for more than $2000. If the individual recoup was eliminated, I could have "recouped" the entire amount from that one item (which I never actually paid for). 
 

Seemed like a pretty big loophole to me. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

Yes it does, though -$2000 is as low as you could go.

In reply to SV reX :

Let me tell you that Lotus had the absolute worst chassis under it that any Lotus could have come with! No way I could have sold that for more than a couple hundred. There is a lot more recoup in the Avalon's catalytic converters though...possibly enough to pay for a roll cage. 

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to maschinenbau :

Yes it does, though -$2000 is as low as you could go.

does it really matter if a car has a negative budget as it competes?

you can spend up to $2000 on your car.  but you don't have to.

you can [recoup plus trade] up to $2000.  but you don't have to.

even in SVreX's lotus example, so what if he got it free and sold the chassis for $2000?  now he's got a car without a chassis and $2000 to spend.

is that different from spending $2000 on the car, then maxing out [recoup plus trade]?  in either case he's still got $2000 to spend.  the only difference is how much he's actually out of pocket.

Actually he would have $4000 to spend. The exact same $4000 as every other competitor. It's not a loophole.

$0 car + $2000 recoup = $4000 budget
$2000 car + $2000 recoup = $4000 budget
$500 car + $1500 spend + $2000 recoup = $4000 budget

There in no more unlimited trading to supplement maxed out builds, closing an actual loophole to get above $4000. Max budget is max budget this way; choose how to apply it.

In reply to maschinenbau :

I mixed that up. I also had another Lotus with a brand new chassis under it. 
 

Same issue, different car.

In reply to gumby :

It's not a cash loophole. But one version of the rules clearly prohibits that build, and the other allows it. 
 

Edit: Although there IS a different amount of cash to spend...

$0 car + $2000 recoup = $4000 cash left to spend in the budget

$2000 car + $2000 recoup = $2000 cash left to spend in the  budget

A $0 car that has few parts of value (like many) is not equal to a $0 car that has 1 part worth a lot of money toward recoup if only the overall recoup matters.

I'm not debating the right or wrong. I'm just asking because I was specifically told that was against the spirit of the rules in the past, and the rules were changed to clearly disallow it.

It also seems to mess with the meaning of the word "recoup".

If the money was never spent in the purchase, then we are not "recouping" anything.  I thought that was why it was always an item by item recoup. Basically, you can't make money on a deal. You can recover money you spent to purchase something you didn't need that was part of a larger purchase. 
 

To be clear, I'd much rather a single recoup against the total project. Line item recoup is a pain in the butt.  

Okay, I've never competed, but I've been following for some time, and I think I'm following this rule change, but I'd like to clarify to ensure I've got my ducks in the same pond (I'll worry about getting them in a row later).

For $600 I purchased a large lot of parts including the "berkfire". Besides the car, the lot included things like 3 transmissions, several engines, lots and lots of mechanical parts (like enough to build 3 or 4 complete suspensions) and LOTS more stuff. It literally filled a full size SUV to the roof along with a 16 foot car trailer.

From this point I have $1400 cash left in my budget. That part I'm pretty clear on.

Under the new rules, I can trade or sell the spare parts for up to $2000 total "recoup" and still have my $1400 cash budget, is that correct?

Or is $600 my recoup limit?

Effectively now all of the recoup/trades need to be documented and added to the budget, either at real cost or FMV, depending on how it's acquired. Whereas under the old rules, I would have had effectively unlimited trades on the extra stuff, but only $600 to recoup for the cash budget.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Tom Suddard said:

I'm open to removing the per-item recoup limit to simplify the event, as long as that wouldn't cause unintended consequences. Would it open up any wild loopholes? 

Not that I see.
It is certainly a different approach to the budget than previously held, but so is counting trades as recoup. These tweaks go hand-in-hand, aligning the budget more with reality. I have put real dollars in my pocket on more well-bought parts/cars than I can recall. This is everyday stuff that helps keep my hobby out of our household budget, and not being able to show it in a Challenge build has always seemed odd. Especially so, considering that I could legally "hide" the same profits thru unlimited trading. With trades now counted, all competitors have the same budget and there is less push to disguise where recoup comes from. Removing the restriction of turning a profit on recoup simplifies the rules and reflects a more accurate picture of how building on a budget can be possible by utilizing every piece of the buffalo.

In reply to ToManyProjects :

That's correct, except that we haven't clarified if your recoup on that deal is limited to $600 or $2000.

Hopefully Tom will clarify that soon.

Tom Suddard said:

I'm open to removing the per-item recoup limit to simplify the event, as long as that wouldn't cause unintended consequences.

Please do. 
 

I'll be in the car a fair bit tomorrow to ponder things. Expect some clarification this weekend/Monday morning. 

Okay, I thought this over and the per-item recoup limit is now dead. I've updated the rules on the site:

https://2000challenge.com/rules

Let me know if I missed anything updating the rules, but this should simplify budgets. Woohoo!

In reply to Tom Suddard :

thank you, Tom. I think this is simplifying and adding lightness, which is what the rules needed. 

Thanks Tom!

This is a great change.  It makes it level for everyone.  Everyone gets to wheel and deal their way to $4000 worth of non exempt parts on their build.  

Every once in a while I need to re-read the rules. 
 

I wonder when this one is gonna get pushed too far:

During the concours, there are no minimum clothing requirements.
 

SV reX said:

Every once in a while I need to re-read the rules. 
 

I wonder when this one is gonna get pushed too far:

During the concours, there are no minimum clothing requirements.
 

Count me out for team speedo.

Tom Suddard said:

Okay, I thought this over and the per-item recoup limit is now dead.

Please relay my appreciation to whomever is responsible for updating the budget template spreadsheets. 

SV reX said:

Every once in a while I need to re-read the rules. 
 

I wonder when this one is gonna get pushed too far:

During the concours, there are no minimum clothing requirements.
 

Probably when someone does a RHCP Fight Like A Brave themed car.