1964 Dodge Dart - Weekend Cruiser

Some of you probably saw my previous thread. My wife and I no longer have need for two everyday cars, since we both walk or bike to work. So, that got me permission to pick up an old project car and scratch my mechanical urges.

Picked up a very straight '64 sedan with a little bit of rust in the trunk pan, but otherwise super clean. Base model, three on the tree. Previous owner claims to have rebuilt the 170 with a shaved head and raised compression, judging by the paint condition and new motor mounts, he at least had the engine out.  Fresh brake shoes all around, new single pot master cylinder. 

Then he went and messed up - installed an Offenhauser intake and a 450CFM Holley with no provisions for a choke. It'll start and idle (super high), but dies out when any gas is applied. If I plan to drive this thing, it'll need a choke, not a wannabe racer setup.  And 450cfm just seems super overkill for a 170ci engine. So it seems the carb needs to go. 

I've got a few options I'm looking at. Since it's currently inop and sitting without a muffler, preference will be for cheap (to keep wife happy), quick (to avoid pissing off neighbors with open exhaust), and foolproof (refer previous note on quick). Once it's mobile and I can go get a muffler installed, I can breathe a little easier. 

1. I've got the old stock intake and 1-barrel Carter. No ID tag on carb, but PO says is was running on it previously. The old throttle linkage is gone, but I've got a line on the full cable setup from a '65 Slant Valiant w/ AC. Pick that up along with a stock choke, revert to stock, and hope the Carter is truly in functional shape. If not... well...
2. Adapt a 2-barrel of some type to the Offenhauser manifold. Would need to source the right carb and adapter plate still. The Carter BBD's (stock super six manifold) I'm seeing would all need some re-work on my end, and then figuring out linkage, etc. The Holley 2300 seems popular, but for a (higher compression but otherwise stock) 170 350 CFM is likely overkill - right? I've got the aftermarket cable to make the throttle work already in place. 
3. Hunt down a Super Six setup. Looks like most of these are $350+ and needing a carb rebuild when they do come up for sale. I'd still need a throttle linkage. Likely not the best choice (see cheap and quick, above) 
4. Find a spare stock intake and modify it to accept a two barrel. Offy intake and boy racer carb could be sold off to fund the difference, and start paying for the needed exhaust work. Might be leaning this way, and could perhaps do a Weber conversion kit meant for a Jeep affordably 
    

Whatever I pick - needs to be quick and not piss off the neighbors before I can get a muffler on! 

How hard would it be to fit a manual choke plate and choke from a swap meet/junk Holley? might be your shortest route to cruising...

In reply to Agent98 :

Unfortunately, this carb (Holley List 9776) has NO provisions for fitting a choke. I'd wind up having to drill the air horn to custom fit a choke shaft and blade, which seems... not worthwhile on a fairly new carb if it's still going to be super oversized. 

  I could be wrong, but you might have a big vacuum leak.  The vent hose from the valve cover should just go to the air filter assembly.  The connection on the manifold would normally go to a power brake booster, but there would be no air flow to that port.  I would start by connecting a vacuum gage to the manifold and see what is happening.  Set up right it should work.

    Also that red coil should be mounted vertical, sounds odd but the oil filled red coil will burn up if mounted like that. 

Agent98 said:

How hard would it be to fit a manual choke plate and choke from a swap meet/junk Holley? might be your shortest route to cruising...

Id also look for vacuum leaks again, and check timing. Shouldn't have to change everything .

Also, a slip fit muffler, even though temporary and janky, will help not piss off the neighborhood .20 bucks well spent.

I totally agree with the breather tube, that likely went to the bottom of the air cleaner.  For now just pinch it closed with some needle nosed vice grips and see if it idles.

Also I have a Holley 390 four barrel that could be had for cheap if you need it, has an electric choke I think.   

Dbussey1 said:

Then he went and messed up - installed an Offenhauser intake and a 450CFM Holley with no provisions for a choke. It'll start and idle (super high), but dies out when any gas is applied. If I plan to drive this thing, it'll need a choke, not a wannabe racer setup.  And 450cfm just seems super overkill for a 170ci engine. So it seems the carb needs to go. 

Maybe the carburetor has a bad accelerator pump, that could explain it dying when you try to give it gas.  If you do replace it, you can get a 390cfm four barrel that may be a better choice.

I found an article on the Hot Rod Magazine website about hopping up a slant six.  Their engine was the 225ci version so a lot may not apply to yours, but it's still interesting reading.  https://www.hotrod.com/articles/slant-sickness-add-77-hp-mopar-slant-six/

How old is that carb? That might have ben made when Holley had a bad batch of carbs due to the metering block coating failing. I had issues with my Street Avenger 670cfm carb stumbling off idle, and that's what it was. Carb was from around 2005. Holley replaced it free of charge back around 2008.

Thanks all for the thoughts/ comments. Good stuff to consider. I'll definitely be checking for vac leaks before I pull everything apart, including the PCV setup. Although I believe at least on the stock assembly, it was hooked to a manifold vac source. See the photo below from Hot Rod article, for example. 

https://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/21/2018/08/036-slant-six-sense-part-2.jpg

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Was already considering the slip-on muffler! Haven't been able to locate one that fits the stock 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 exhaust pipe however. Except a couple of expensive and outrageous Harley items that seem unlikely to help. 

In reply to Akylekoz: 

I might have to take you up on that - I assume its a good core in need of a rebuild? 

In reply to stuart in mn: 

It does seem to be getting a VERY HEALTHY shot of fuel from the accel pump when I open the throttle. And I noticed that Hot Rod article too - good food for thought, I just wonder if it would still be overkill for a 170. 

I'd at least get a vacuum gauge and *try* tuning it to see what you get. You should at least be able to get it to run well enough to drive without getting into the secondaries.

Also, there's already a kind of well documented thread here on what I think you should do with it. 

TED_fiestaHP said:

  I could be wrong, but you might have a big vacuum leak.  The vent hose from the valve cover should just go to the air filter assembly.  The connection on the manifold would normally go to a power brake booster, but there would be no air flow to that port.  I would start by connecting a vacuum gage to the manifold and see what is happening.  Set up right it should work.

    Also that red coil should be mounted vertical, sounds odd but the oil filled red coil will burn up if mounted like that. 

I agree that hose is probably not correct...

Nice ride! Reminds me of the "Shart" a few years ago. It's a fun read if you haven't seen it already.

Use a couple of exhaust pipe reducers for the muffler

maschinenbau said:

Nice ride! Reminds me of the "Shart" a few years ago. It's a fun read if you haven't seen it already.

It'd be really easy to add a manual choke in the intercooler piping. 

Id be tempted to delete every vacuum source with nipple plugs to see what happens. 

You can stick a vacuum gauge on it to see what the vacuum idle might be.

My thoughts is that intake set-up is a lot like the Weber DGV conversions that I see on a lot of MGBs. Fine once they warm up, but the 90 degree bend right after the throttle plates and the cold mass of the manifold combine to drop the fuel out of suspension. Without a choke, the engines run like crap until the heat from the block travels along the intake manifold  to where it gets  hot to the  touch.

Does it in fact run ok once it warms up?

Pete

Unrelated pinto intake also up for grabs.

The carb appears used, I can hear the floats moving around.  It may even work as is.

These carbs were the primaries on a dual carb setup for a grand total of 900 cfm or am I FOS.

I have the base gasket for it.

The hose is correct.

It's a pcv. manifold vacuum to a pcv valve.

The chromed up edeltorque pcv probably isn't right, go buy the correct PCV for that engine.

For now, remove the pcv and plug the hose to see if the idle gets better.

See the base plate of the Holley posted above? See the big slot that is a prime candidate for a huge vacuum leak? Take the carb off, turn it over, put the base gasket on it and see if it acutally covers all the slots and holes except for the venturis. You need to make sure the manifold and gasket don't allow anything to be open to the atmosphere.

I'd also look at ditching that carburetor and finding something with vacuum secondaries and a functioning choke.

Slow going this weekend, only got in a couple hours on Sunday. Climb under and check out the exhaust... 

Yeah, that’s not what I want. Caliper shows 2” o.d. On the welded section, so I grab a cheap turbo style muffler for $23 at the local parts store and get to work with a hacksaw. 

Money net well spent to avoid pissing off the neighbors - although someone has already complained to the HOA. Need to get her on the road, in the future real work can be done at the Makerspace I use up the road . 

Other notes while under there: very solid, save one rust patch behind the passenger side wheel in the trunk pan. Shouldn’t be too hard to cut out and patch. New gas tank installed, and relatively recent rear shocks (Ranchos, meh). 

Only a llittle time time in the engine bay, it’ll crank over 10-15 seconds before it lights off.  Idles low for a few seconds, jumps to 3k for another 12-15 seconds, then stumbles and dies. Plugging PCV saw no change, nor did spraying at the intake gasket against the head. Adding throttle when it tries to stumble got me some backfire through the carb. Picked up some more carb cleaner and vacuum plugs tonight  to look into it a bit further. 

In reply to Dbussey1 :

I'm no carb guru but isn't the backfire caused from being lean? 

Also I love this generation darts and this looks like a good start

    Why would the idle jump to 3,000 RPM, if there is no choke or fast idle set-up, sounds like a air leak.   Or the idle setting is set to high....

      One think to consider, often a carb problem is really a ignition problem.  I would start with a fresh set of plugs, and replace the coil.  Also it might sound odd, but the red MSD coil should be mounted vertical.  The MSD instructions indicate it can fail if mounted horizontal, and I had that happen.

     If it back fires up thru the carb, it is to lean.   I have never seen a carb that didn't have idle mixture screws, so those could be set richer.  Also I think you can take the big screw out of the top of the float bowl to check the fuel level, to ensure the float is set correct and make sure it is getting fuel.

     The carb you have might not be perfect for the engine, but it should work well enough for it to run and drive.  I know nothing about this particular carb, I would be tempted to run 3 side draft webers.

       With no choke, pump the gas a couple times before the starter.  

        After it does warm up, it might run a lot better, might have to open the throttle slowly until it all warms up.