I'd do the ball joints. Rent a ball joint press from the FLAPS. I bent my HF press being an abusive gorilla. (and put off the job long enough to lose the 30-day return window)
If it's been sitting for a while with a torn boot it could be rusty and on a fast track to a bad day.
Yeah I have to go to flaps anyway for some brake line (I'll grab a pic later of exactly why). Before I go I'll get the boot off to see what it looks like underneath.
I'm not too worried about rust, the sheer gunk covering these meant as soon as the ball joints were loose they spun off by hand.
LOTS of progress yesterday!
First I assembled the spindles.
The kit calls to reuse the steering arms. Wife wasn't home so I put mine in the dishwasher to clean them up. (Just kidding! But I did clean them up)
Next I turned my attention to the master. Sweet new dual circuit next to old single. Also got the correct proportioning valve for manual brakes with rotors in front and drums rear.
First problem is the difference in interface between the pushrod and cylinder, and of course the new one doesn't come with a new pushrod.
Pile of random hardware to the rescue!
Ready for test fit.
Unfortunately due to interference with the inner fender, the valve will not fit to the side where it is supposed to (and where the included lines would locate it). Seems to fit underneath however.
Also, I see that this line was likely 'bumped' at some point removing the engine. Guess I'll be doing a new line.
Finally did a thorough cleaning and took one last look at the ball joint in question. I decided to replace it but leave the others as they are still good. Off to the flaps!
The second flaps I went to had the ball joint in stock and had the installer press (I was able to hammer the old one out).
Mmmm shiny.
I next turned my attention to making these new hard lines. I really hope they don't leak so I can be done with this job...
It does fit great however!
Beauty shot for the end of the night. I did get the rear line hooked up to the new master as well as the pedal. All it needs is new lines run from the master to each front wheel and a quick bleed and this job will be done!!
Also I got curious about weight (who isn't?) So I popped out the scales
Complete drum assembly minus steering arm is about 35 lbs
Disk, caliper, spindle (with steering arm but no bearings) is more like 45. So this conversion adds 10 lbs per side. The disks are very heavy!
Looks good. I'm surprised the disks are that much heavier than the drum setup, I would have expected them to be more or less about the same.
The drum itself is a lot lighter than a disc, and compare caliper to wheel cylinder
yeah, these disks are not like modern car disks, since they have the hub/bearings/wheel studs/etc all integrated into the disk rather than a disk that bolts onto a hub.
I kept at it tonight:
Started by bending a new brake line for the passenger side.
Had some fun while installing it though...
The tube touched the underside of this guy and the chassis at the same time. Causing a short. And then a small fire. You can see the melted plastic and rubber on the inner fender below. Luckily, the chassis is covered in grime that must be high resistance because it didn't weld itself into position, but it was a fun exercise to have the tube suddenly start sparking, and then see the fire, and then run to grab a rag to pull the tube out, and then try to blow out the fire from underneath, and then run over to lower the lift so I could put the fire out from above. Few people are worried about the speed a home lift lowers until they are waiting for their car to come down so they can extinguish it. Anyone know what that guy is? I think it's a fog light or high beam relay by just guessing.
Anyway, back to brake line installing (now with 100% more battery disconnected)
I kinda like the swoopyness
Soft lines installed! Now all I have to do is bleed it, right?
Wrong! We all know the bleeders on the rear wheel cylinders are going to be seized and I'm going to have to replace another brake line because the fitting is rusted to the tube right? Luckily an oreilies close by had two in stock.
Not half bad! I did replace both wheel cylinders at the rear (they needed it, so that was actually good that I broke the bleeders), and also saw that on the driver side the parking brake cable was seized, probably why it was cut off by someone long ago, but it still wasn't fully released. So I sorta fixed that by fully releasing the cable.
Good news is that in all the time I spent on the wheel cylinders and drum brake springs, the brake system mostly gravity bled itself. Here's hoping I can finish this up (and fix some wiring) tomorrow.
Looking good!
This brings me back. I put that exact same kit under my El Camino a few years ago. My "Corvette style" dual circuit master also didn't come with a push rod, so there's a rounded-off bolt in there.
My scope definitely crept though. Ball joints turned into bushings turned into powdercoating all the arms and linkages and let's do the rear while we're at it...so much fun though.
Make sure you grease the hell outta those guide pins.
I'm guessing that was the horn relay you contacted with the brake line. Most GM cars of that era had it mounted in about that location.
Robbie said:Few people are worried about the speed a home lift lowers until they are waiting for their car to come down so they can extinguish it.
damn man, that made me LOL during a very important meeting!
and yes, that is the horn relay.
maschinenbau said:This brings me back. I put that exact same kit under my El Camino a few years ago. My "Corvette style" dual circuit master also didn't come with a push rod, so there's a rounded-off bolt in there.
My scope definitely crept though. Ball joints turned into bushings turned into powdercoating all the arms and linkages and let's do the rear while we're at it...so much fun though.
Make sure you grease the hell outta those guide pins.
that is exactly the scope creep I DIDNT want! I think your camino is worth it though.
Interestingly the kit instructions don't say anything about greasing the pins. Greasing the wheel bearings yes, but nothing on the pins. And with the pins exposed like they are, I'm really wondering how they work for long at all, grease or no grease.
In reply to Robbie :
Grease everything that moves. A while after installing my kit, I developed a braking pull. One side's pads were wearing diagonally. Replacing the pads and pins, and greasing this time, cured it.
Well, I spent 3 hours tonight and it's no closer to being bled than when I started. Usually I expect that when bleeding clutches, but brakes are normally easy for me.
Here's what's weird. If I crack the bleeder on the master for the rear line, I get plenty of fluid, no air. But when I open either or both rear brake bleeders, I can't get anything to come out. Which is really weird because last night fluid was gravity draining from the master all the way out to the ends of the lines and dripping on my floor while I was redoing the brake cylinders.
I could get the front brakes bled, and I had ok pedal, but I could spin the rear tires and apply the brake and there was no slowing the tires.
I think something is happening with my proportioning valve that is blocking flow to the rear brakes. Is that possible? Is there something I need to do to "reset" it to allow flow to the rear?
In reply to maschinenbau :
Copy that, and thanks for the heads up!
Whelp. Looks like it probably is the proportioning valve. Apparently they can 'trip' to block flow one way or the other in case of a blown line.
At least now I think I know what I need to do to reset the dang thing. But we'll see if I accidentally trip it again while bleeding next time.
I learned something new today, and will continue to use my pressure or vacuum bleeder to prevent this problem.
Yes, it's the safety/proportioning combo valve probably. Open a front and rear bleeder at the same time and pump slowly. That worked for me two days ago on my suburban. I also tapped the (original) valve with a ball-peen hammer a few times to see if it would help. It's frustrating.
I couldn't believe that, working on cars that have these valves in them all my life, I didn't learn about this valve until just a few years ago. But...that's how it went. I mean, I knew the valve/switch was there. But I had never experienced one being tripped in all these years of working on F-bodies, G-bodies, Fox bodies, square bodies, etc. until recently.
did you adjust all the slack out of the rear brake shoes, if not you'll never get them to bleed properly. crank the self adjusters out until you can't turn the rear wheels at all then back them both off equal number of clicks (usually 6-8) til they spin kinda free.
also I've found you have to bench bleed those old style m/c until you are all tuckered out. you can't install them dry and get a good bleed later.
and some of those prop valves are not self centering. there is a tool that replaces the warning light switch, holding the balance valve centered.
the m/c will have a residual valve installed behind the outlet port seat for the rear brakes to keep 10-15 psi line pressure to the drum brakes, there will not be a residual valve in the m/c for the discs in front .
also some prop valves have a tiny pin that look like a very small nail head, and must be locked in the pulled out position by a piece of flat spring steel hooked under the "nail head" and between the prop vale body, could that be hidden under that rubber cap on the front side?
In reply to OldDave :
good call on adjusting the shoes. I did that last night and one side was WAY loose. I also took the brake valve apart and I think I was able to reset it. more bleeding to come!
Aaaaaaand found the real culprit. Rear soft line from car to axle.
Not leaking externally, but also 100% plugged. I wonder if I damaged it somehow when replacing a line on the t fitting at the end of it, since I know for a fact it was passing fluid before I replaced the wheel cylinders. Or maybe it was just old and crappy and due for replacement anyway, and attempting to bleed the brakes was the straw that broke the camel's back.
Oh well. I'm happy that I've found the issue at least.
Hey Robbie: GREAT job on this.
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