Gimp wrote:
That seems to be the consensus so far, but it's harder to put metal back on, so I thought I'd ask.
As opposed to earlier, when we decided that we needed to ducttape a copy of the rulebook to the plasma cutter we had access to at the time. (we had some metal to add back to the car...)
I am still proud of how much weight I took out of that core support you told me to go nuts on, even if you went and bought another stock one to take its place on the car. 
Oh, and for anyone who forgets just how big this car is, despite how low it is...
Front of an impreza inside Gimp's front clip.
Apexcarver wrote:
Oh, and for anyone who forgets just how big this car is, despite how low it is...
Front of an impreza inside Gimp's front clip.
It's barely in there. Not exactly a hod dog in a hallway.
Gimp wrote:
Rules interpretation question!!!
(Everyone's favorite, right?)
I'm trying to complete all the cutting on the car necessary over the next few weeks. One area I haven't really addressed, aside from clearance needed at ride height, is the rear wheel opening. Since I need to do a little more trimming for bump travel, I'm looking at the opening as a whole. The flares I have cover everything I need, but they enlarge the wheel well opening, left to right, but a few inches.
Here is the flare with the front part butted against the front of the factory wheel well:
Here is that same opening, with the tire in it (notice the minimum amount of material removed at the moment). While another measurement should be made, it is safe to assume the rear wheel is in the right place for the wheelbase.
And now the rule (emphasis mine):
L. The contour of the fender may be altered (flared) for tire clearance provided the modifications do not confuse the identity of the car. Only standard production ventilation openings on the specific recognized model are permitted. Tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Fender wheel openings may be trimmed to provide tire clearance throughout the full range of suspension travel, but no more than is necessary for this purpose.
So, here are the questions/options:
1. Does leaving the flare in it's current location, and trimming the original fender to fit under it illegal (leaving a lot of room behind the tire).
If that's okay, then:
1a. Should I move the flare a little forward and trim both the front and rear? This might be more aesthetically balanced, but means a little more work.
1b. Should I narrow the flare to be safe?
1c. Make new flares on my own?
Here are some other cars for reference:
https://picasaweb.google.com/116511746312170569817/2014SCCASoloNationalsCPSmallAutoxpix?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLHxMW2_dWqJg#6058901071935475250
https://picasaweb.google.com/116511746312170569817/2014SCCASoloNationalsCPSmallAutoxpix?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLHxMW2_dWqJg#6058901166427968738
https://picasaweb.google.com/116511746312170569817/2014SCCASoloNationalsCPSmallAutoxpix?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLHxMW2_dWqJg#6058901354793029426
https://picasaweb.google.com/116511746312170569817/2014SCCASoloNationalsCPSmallAutoxpix?authkey=Gv1sRgCKLHxMW2_dWqJg#6058901424284817234
Well I'm no rules expert, but I would say move it forward a bit and trim for clearence. I think that would still keep the wheel opening aesthetically looking. If you leave a huge gap behind the tire then you leave the question why is it like that. That's my 2 cents.
I would trim only as much as necessary. In the flare pict, paint any sheetmetal still visible inside the flair black, won't be as noticeable and will still be within the rules. I would trim the opening a bit more though, those tires seem to be able to move around more than you think they would.
Rave on young man. when you hunt for Good but used parts that are Proven . look under Race car on CL. here in Georgia you can often find race parts Cheep. Often you can get a whole roller for Pennies when you add up the little pieces, Fine job, John
First off great build. This is what I dream of to do to my Camaro. I would move it forward some and cut both sides to compensate for bump travel, body roll, and axle movement. As long as it is aesthetically appealing to SCCA. As I remember it says in your rule you posted, " The contour of the fender may be altered (flared) for tire clearance provided the modifications do not confuse the identity of the car." As far as I see, I didn't observe anything in the rule that says leaving to much room behind the tire, due to cutting the original fender, deemed to be illegal. To be safe though I would not exaggerate the flares as to confuse the car with a porshe as that would not be aesthetically appealing to SCCA because it is confused with another car. Best of luck in your choice.
This part: "Fender wheel openings may be trimmed to provide tire clearance throughout the full range of suspension travel, but no more than is necessary for this purpose."
does limit how much he can cut. So better to be safe than sorry.
81cpcamaro wrote:
This part: "Fender wheel openings may be trimmed to provide tire clearance throughout the full range of suspension travel, but no more than is necessary for this purpose."
does limit how much he can cut. So better to be safe than sorry.
Correct me if I'm wrong because I am no expert on the SCCA rules but if and when he does put on the flares does that count as his fender or a part of it. Where I'm getting at is if he puts on the flares you wouldn't see what he has cut and it is a part of the fender so it is not marked as unnecessary cutting of the fender. Just wondering if they judge it that way or not.
The rules do say the fender can be altered (flared) for tire clearance, so a flare can be added, but the flare is added, it is not the fender/quarter, as I understand it. Plus, I haven't seen any CP cars at Nats with excessive clearance around the tires. Cutting it bigger like you are saying may be considered a tortured interpretation, which wouldn't be allowed. Remember, if it doesn't say you can do it (in the rules), then you can't.
In reply to 81cpcamaro: Just don't make it look like a dirt track car. The examples you showed were to me Border line Ugly (two mustangs and a camaro), a flare (less is more) helps keep the car lines intact and not look butchered, the old Roush fox body mustangs and Dekon Monza could be a bit much, but with a flare the Opening can remain Small and the tire is covered, and you do nice work so don't stop now. A simple But nice looking Flare can be made by making a T cut, first cut straight up the center of the wheelwell 6 or 7 inches and then across the width of the wheel opening, Pull the sides out till they will clear the tire then fill the gap with the piece you got at pull apart for a factory lip all the way across then ad pieces at the top to fill that in, really easy for you.
Some hits and some misses... first the hits:
AGR Steering box in! (there is a slight miss here - this is my second AGR box, and my second box with screw up splines. I'm probably never getting that u-joint off)
Engine in place!
And bolted to the back of that, the Jerico 4 speed!
I also purchased some new front spindles, because the steering arms on the old ones were designed for turning left. There were only a few degrees of right hand steering available. A quick call to Coleman (who were super helpful) and a hit to the credit card, and I got new spindles with detachable steering arms.
Now the big miss:
When I got the new spindles on the car, I still ran into an interference issue with the lower shock mount.
This is currently limiting my steering. Here is lock to lock:
My plan is to move the lower shock mount in about a half an inch on the control arm to gain some clearance, unless you guys have any better ideas.
It's coming together and I can sympathize on the credit card hit. I've chewed mine up pretty bad this year for parts already. I can't help you with the steering issue. No experience there, good luck with it.
Good to know about the steering arm limiting turning with the Coleman spindles. Moving the shock in is probably the best idea for a bit more turning. My steering turns a little more angle than yours, but not much. So any you can gain would be helpful.
The picture looks like its the bolt hitting. Could you use a button head fastener for more clearance?
I'd mill/clearance the arm so the fastener sits down in flush
Some great ideas here.
Milling down the arm wouldn't be difficult on the rear, where you see the bolt, as there is plenty of meat there.
Something else someone on another forum asked - how much will it matter once the sway bar is in there?
That's honestly a great question. I will need room for that as well, so I may not need to clearance as much as I thought.
Does anyone have an idea of what a good "maximum steering angle" should be?
From this link:
http://www.detroitspeed.com/1970-1981-F-Body-products/032011-hydroformed-subframe.html
They list a maximum steering angle of 30-33 degrees depending on the tire/wheel size. I would try and see how close you can get to that. Next time mine is out of the trailer I will measure to see what angle I have.
In the event you are curious to see the spindle angle at full lock without the tire:
http://teamziptie.com/camaro/20150502/IMG_3692.JPG
http://teamziptie.com/camaro/20150502/IMG_3693.JPG
Do you have the steering box in the stock holes? I don't know the Camaro frames that well but in Metric stock cars we would rotate them so that the pitman arm and idler arm were parallel to the ground. They seemed to be easier to get rid of bump steer that way.
Wally wrote:
Do you have the steering box in the stock holes? I don't know the Camaro frames that well but in Metric stock cars we would rotate them so that the pitman arm and idler arm were parallel to the ground. They seemed to be easier to get rid of bump steer that way.
The steering box is in the stock holes, but it isn't hooked up to the steering arms. I will take a better look at your bump steer idea next time I'm up there.
For E36 M3s and grins I overlaid the two previous photos, roughly adjusted for scale and angle, and measured the sweep in photoshop. I get a 42 degree sweep from lock to lock. Even if you split it dead even (but that isn't right, as it turns one way further than the other) you get 21 degrees each way, which is short of the 30 degrees from Detroit Speed.
Apexcarver did some maths based on some stock measurements I gave him that puts the stock steering angle around 26 degrees.
Granted, this is all an effort it stupidity. Easiest thing to do will be to measure next time I'm up there.
In reply to Gimp:
I just did some quick crude measurements on my 70 bird and it looks like stock was probably about 28-29 maybe 30 and I've limited mine to about 25-26 by tapping the steering stops and installing a bolt so the head of the bolt is the stop. This is enough so 285 18's on 10" rims w/6" backspace won't rub on the fat Hotchkis swaybar. My car is set up for road course so I don't need really tight turning radius.
The DSE setup (only on the hydroformed frame package)allows a 30 degree with 18X 10's because on that package they use a splined sway bar and the ends are tucked compared with a traditional sway bar. With their traditional bars it's similar to mine.
I have stock length upper & lower arms and stock steering if you need any measurements.
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In reply to Rad_Capz:
That is super helpful. Honestly, looking at how much room your stock-style sway takes up, I don't know that I'm in as bad of shape as I thought.
Randy, if you see this when you pull the car out of the trailer, could you take a photo of how close your tire is to the frame, front and rear at full lock?
