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Steve
Steve New Reader
6/16/20 11:32 a.m.

Hey GRM, I've been on the hunt now for a replacement for my first generation Forester for a little while now. Not that it's a bad car, it's a great car, an absolute beast in snow, it handles far better than it should (WRX springs and rear sway bar), all of the controls are in the perfect place, and it does it's job without any sort of hesitation or gruff.

But, this particular example spent some winters where there is salt, and it's pretty rusty in spots that are beyond my drive to repair, and every time I work on it I buy stock in PB Blaster before hand. The sway bar install that should have taken 30 minutes was an absolute nightmare. In short, my desire to put any more money into it (fix the air conditioning for one) is incredibly low. Couple this with the fact that while the Forester being built on the Impreza chassis makes modifying the suspension really easy and the car handle quite well, it also makes the backseat and rear door entry incredibly small. Getting my 10 month old back there is just a huge pain in the ass based on the actual geometry of the back seat entry. In short, I got frustrated with the car, and I wanted something a little unique that I didn't see ten of on my daily commute (the PNW is Subaruland).

I saw a post here on GRM about the Matrix/Vibe platform a ways back. I remember driving a Celica GTS with the 2ZZ a long time ago, and I got to thinking; four doors, large rear entry, flip glass (a surprisingly useful thing), fold flat seats, cupholders (early Subaru's have garbage cup holders), strong brakes, six speed, and a motor that isn't just a utilitarian lump. It also satisfies my love for Toyota, as I already own an 85 AW11.

So it was on the short list of cars that just made sense. Is it perfect? No, not really. But it's a good middle ground for all of the above reasons.

I looked at a few other options in the meantime, as the GT/XRS variants were either very expensive or just weren't for sale and the base models weren't interesting enought to me. I flip flopped on what might make sense, almost putting an E39 touring project in my driveway. My slow action on that car was likely driven by my subconscious brain knowing that it was a dumb idea (and still, no cupholders!).

And then it happened, a 2003 Vibe GT, in my opinion the better looking of the two siblings. Grey body cladding, blue exterior. 158k miles, black interior that looked in halfway decent condition, with the original all weather mats, an hour from home, an asking price of 750$ with ad text that made me really question if it was a scam.

Long story short, I was able to mobilize the team for a pickup this past Sunday. Met the owner on his farm, took it for a short drive, and then somehow drove this 750 dollar car back home, on the interstate, using cruise control, listening to music, without any incident (almost). The last sub 1000 car I bought I had to pick up on a flatbed. Sure, the Vibe wouldn't stay in sixth, but I knew that going in. At that point I felt like I was ahead of the game.

I also knew going into it that the seller thought it needed a clutch. I babied it on the drive home, because breaking down when your support team includes a 10 month old isn't the best idea, but once I got within a few miles of home, basically on cloud nine, I knew I couldn't last without wringing the 2ZZ out at least once. Exit the interstate, point the nose down a familiar stretch of road, short shift into 2nd, and made that engine sing. Right on time, it hits the switchover at 6500 (or wherever), and it noticeably punches the car forward, and it just goes, and goes, and goes. If I didn't have all this space around me, I'd tell you that I was back in my 20V MR2 from when I was younger.

Man, that's a good mill, but wait, what's that in my rearview? Oh, okay a little smoke, I know that some 2ZZ's have a habit of eating oil, I'll keep an eye on it.

Then I can't get into another gear, oh boy. I'm close to home, but not that close to home. I make it back through a dance of shutting the car off at lights, or crawling in second and California rolling some stop signs. Well E36 M3. I'll wait a day to tell my very patient wife about that part.

The best I can figure, is that I either melted, or blew apart the already slipping clutch. I've never quite had this problem before, and since I was going into this thinking I was going to install a clutch already, I'll just get in there and see how bad it looks. I've bled the hydraulic system already, and I'm getting good slave cylinder actuation, but the car is locked in gear with the engine running and will not roll forward or back with the clutch pedal down and the engine off. This is a new one to me, so if anyone has some thoughts, I'm all ears just for the sake of conversation.

Lots of little things to fix and clean up on this one, but unless something is broken, no modifications beyond repair. Just a neat little swoopy mailbox on wheels that I can count on to carry my life around. So this build thread is more about fixing all the tiny things that you might expect to be wrong on a sub 1000$ Vibe GT and making it a nice place that for the family that also happens to have 11.5:1 compression

But first, I should probably make it drive. Stage Zero, here we go.

Money shots (garbage photos because it's been pouring here in the PNW, and you know, it's broken, so I can't get it outside very easily):

 

 

Thanks for reading if you've made it this far!

mgfoster
mgfoster New Reader
6/16/20 11:53 a.m.

It isn't an E39 Touring, but it will do. Congrats on the new purchase, hope the clutch is an easy fix. 

Agent98
Agent98 Reader
6/16/20 11:57 a.m.

Nice score! Essentially a corolla,wagon except cooler. I had a 2003 in "salsa"(dark red). In Louisiana the A/C struggled on hot days and after a while developed a moldy smell when running, an ozone generator $99 from Amazon will fix that. Get a carpet or mat for the rear so things don't slide around on the hard plastic. They leak a little oil and burn some nothing to worry about just keep an eye on the level. Now there's auto store dressings to keep the gray trim looking nice.

RedGT
RedGT Dork
6/16/20 12:20 p.m.

While you're in there doing the clutch, stick in a new rear motor mount too when you reinstall the trans.  It's a PITA to do alone, it'll be needed eventually if not already, and you've got it out anyway.

Fitting the trans in and out past the subframe was one of the most annoying things i have done on a car, but it is possible with 2 guys and no lift.

I found you really will appreciate an engine hoist to hold and reposition the engine, not just a static holding structure like you can get away with on some cars.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/16/20 12:33 p.m.

i thought i saw it in your problem statement but don't see it now:

(1) with the engine OFF, can you shift the trans?

(2) if yes to (1), then with the trans in neutral will the car roll forward or backward?

if (1) = yes and (2) = yes, i think your pilot bearing (bushing?) is siezed to your input shaft.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/16/20 12:43 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

i thought i saw it in your problem statement but don't see it now:

(1) with the engine OFF, can you shift the trans?

(2) if yes to (1), then with the trans in neutral will the car roll forward or backward?

if (1) = yes and (2) = yes, i think your pilot bearing (bushing?) is siezed to your input shaft.

I was gonna say the exact same thing - pilot bushing/bearing

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/16/20 1:00 p.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

i thought i saw it in your problem statement but don't see it now:

(1) with the engine OFF, can you shift the trans?

(2) if yes to (1), then with the trans in neutral will the car roll forward or backward?

if (1) = yes and (2) = yes, i think your pilot bearing (bushing?) is siezed to your input shaft.

I was gonna say the exact same thing - pilot bushing/bearing

that's because you're friggin' smart!

Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter)
Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/16/20 1:09 p.m.

I have been on and off on the matrix/vibe hunt for the other half for the other halfs future daily. Watching. 

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/16/20 1:31 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Great question, I'll check this when I get home. I was only checking for clutch operation so I don't recall if I checked if she'll roll out of gear.

That'd be an interesting failure too.

I imagine it's still worth it to drop a clutch in there when I have it apart.

In reply to RedGT :

I've heard it's not the most fun. Can the subframe be dropped out of the way? Ignorance here, I haven't crawled under it to look yet.

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/16/20 2:15 p.m.

Interesting add on:

I was just looking for a replacement pilot bushing/bearing, and I think I just learned that the 2ZZ doesn't use either which seems interesting.

Anybody have any corroborating evidence for that one?

RedGT
RedGT Dork
6/16/20 3:10 p.m.

In reply to Steve :

No pilot bearing, for sure, at least on an 03 VibeGT.  Weird, but convenient.

 

I don't know if dropping the subframe is possible or normal, just that I didn't.

RedGT
RedGT Dork
6/16/20 3:12 p.m.

I don't recall WHAT the issue was, but I did a lot of research to figure out that you want ARP 2032802 flywheel bolts, and they did indeed work fine for me.  Maybe stock is unavailable or torque to yield or....? idk anymore.  It might have just been that the 'correct' ones were way more expensive, and VibeGT/Lotus guys have been using these as an alternative for years now.

 

I've got an '04 Matrix XRS daily. Good car.

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand Reader
6/16/20 6:22 p.m.

I've always wanted a bucket list Corolla XRS with the 2ZZ. 

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/16/20 7:39 p.m.

Update:

Car rolls forward and back easily with the transmission in neutral. In gear with the clutch in feels just like in gear with the clutch out. 

solfly
solfly HalfDork
6/16/20 7:42 p.m.

An E39 doesn't have cup holders!?!?!

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/16/20 10:56 p.m.

In reply to Steve :

Rolling in neutral suggests the problem is in the clutch bits, not inside the transaxle. If it doesn't have a pilot bushing or bearing, I suspect either a hub spring or perhaps a chunk of friction disc has become lodged between clutch disc and flywheel, essentially sticking the trans input shaft to the engine output. That's why pushing the clutch pedal has no effect.

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/17/20 11:57 a.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks! That makes sense. It'll be interesting to see the damage once I get in there.

 

Mezzanine
Mezzanine Dork
6/17/20 4:51 p.m.

Steve, have you ruled out the slave/master/cable mechanism/throw-out arm itself? I feel like that's a little too obvious here, but I don't remember seeing it discussed. 

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/17/20 10:44 p.m.

In reply to Mezzanine :

Driving it home, I had hoped that'd be the case. I believe the master cylinder was wrongly adjusted so I took care of that and then bled the system. 

I'm still getting good slave and fork actuation, confirmed with a video taken from my cell phone propped in the engine bay. 

The fork is still moving through it's travel, but it's challenging to sight down into the bell housing, even with the dust boot removed. 

At this point, I've called it too hard to diagnose with everything still attached. Seems like the 2zzge has a habit of eating clutches of driven hard, so it seems like it makes the most sense to get in there. 

Should be interesting! 

Ironsides
Ironsides Reader
6/18/20 8:06 a.m.

Nice buy! 

I had similar requirements when shopping for a new DD and the vibe/matrix made the most sense, 2yrs later I don't regret a thing its been a great car.

Conveniently enough, I just replaced the clutch on mine at the start of this Covid stay at home order (160K miles on mine)

Have a look at Monkey Wrench Racing, they specialize in the 1zz/2zz platforms and stock and supply quite a few useful parts for the 2zz powered cars. 

Ultimately I ended up installing a Southbend HD clutch, which seems like a rebranded Excedy HD kit with a new LuK flywheel.

While the 2zz does not have a pilot bearing,  ACT makes a tool that includes a small plastic bushing that seats in the flywheel and allows for the use of a clutch alignment tool. You can eyeball it and try to stab the gearbox in there, but I like to work smarter, not harder ;) 

This plastic bushing remains in place after clutch and pressure plate install and hasn't caused me any issues thus far. I recommend ordering the ACT alignment tool if you go with another brand clutch, both the the Southbend and Excedy clutch kits that I unboxed included the wrong clutch alignment tool. 

The 2zz flywheel bolts are also TTY, you can get a new set of TTY bolts from Monkey Wrench Racing at a reasonable price and they are better that Oem and come pretreated with thread sealant.

I removed my crossmember as it was quite simple and provided much more space to work. The entire job probably took me 5-6hrs collectively, taking my time over the course of 2 weekends. 

Might be a few more bits of info in my thread  here that you might find useful! Happy wrenching, if you have any questions feel free to reach out.

- Nick

Hoondavan
Hoondavan Reader
6/18/20 8:44 a.m.

SWMBO bought one new in 2003.   I don't think she did anything other than replace brake pads/rotors and change-out fluids.  We traded it in around 160k miles in ~2014, if I remember correctly.    It was objectively a good car.  It would have been better with a manual  transmission and even better with the 2zz.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy one for a commuter.  

FYI: if you have a front window regulator fail it's likely under recall, you can have them replaced at a GM dealership. 

The front passenger seat folds forward flat to be the same level as the folded rear seats...great for ladders, surfboards, etc.   

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/18/20 10:39 a.m.

In reply to solfly :

Nothing decent. I think there might have been an option for an overly complicated slide out one. You know the type, the ones that precariously perch your full bevvie above something important?

There is also an aftermarket add on that fits right in front of the center stack. Either way, not great solutions. Give me a center mounted, molded into the console deep cupholder. I don't often have a beverage when I drive, but any vehicle that is made to cover road trip miles and doesn't have a decent place to put a travel mug of coffee is just silly. Manual transmission makes it even more foolish.

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/18/20 10:42 a.m.

In reply to Hoondavan :

Thanks for the tips!

The fold flat floor was one of the things that helped seal the deal. Even just under observation mode in the garge, it's amazing how much space there is in there.

Steve
Steve New Reader
6/18/20 10:57 a.m.

In reply to Ironsides :

Thanks Nick!

I saw your thread a bit ago and appreciate the reminder.

I seem to read horror stories about removing and reinstalling the transmission. I'm looking at it in the garage and I keep saying to myself how much room there looks like there is compared to my AW11, that I also pulled the transmission out of.

Seems like taking the subframe out, and even removing the driver's side strut/knuckle completely is the way to go. Do you have thoughts here? This isn't a primary car for me yet, so I have some time to make it as easy as possible. At 90#, this transmission is quite a bit huskier than the C52 in the AW11 I think, then again I never weighed the 52 when it was out.. Also with the C52 in the AW11, you're basically punching it straight up into the engine bay in a transmission sized cavity, so I'm hoping that the installation in the Vibe will be a bit easier. 

I saw you installed the bearings on the shift linkage, I have the spherical version of those on my AW11, and it looks like the previous owner (or someone) installed polyurethane bushings in the linkages on this one. I think someone gave a damn about this car once, which is good. It's interesting to see the same modifications exist for C series drivetrain vehicles.

 

With all of this transmission chat, I'm wondering if you or any other owners may have experience the similar issue with the 6th gear pop out. A long time ago I had that issue on a C50 AW11, but I haven't found a ton of information on the issue existing on this generation of C60. It seems like it was much more common to have transmission issues with the C59 5 speed. I have my fingers crossed that maybe it just needs some fresh fluid, and the clutch repair, and it may help? But the rational side of my brain tells me there is something worn beyond use in the 6th gear pack.

Even with stuffing a used transmission in this thing, I'd be under budget. But if there are any survival or repair stories, I'd be curious to hear them.

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