Oh I misunderstood what he was saying. I thought he was talking about incorrectly adjusted trailing arms, which can cause binding and thus put the end out of sorts. My fault. 
Oh I misunderstood what he was saying. I thought he was talking about incorrectly adjusted trailing arms, which can cause binding and thus put the end out of sorts. My fault.
Right- my Alfa does the same thing, since it's 3 parallel trailing links are almost the same as the current Mustang- two lower, one upper. Neither the Panhard nor Watts will change that.
Works nice.
I'm curious to find out what the Watts link will do over a panhard in real world situations- Some live axle series use each- so it's hard to figure what's the important part.
I'm curious as to this as well. The fellows I've talked to who run them say it makes the back end much more "solid," especially when cresting hills at speed and unloading the rear suspension. It also is supposed to help greatly during the fast transitions of autocross.
Yep - While math and/or measurements can tell you how much or how little the things are moving (and I agree that at the small amounts we're talking about, it doesn't seem like a big deal), the net result is that the ass feels more planted and predictable with the watts. Now, at least part of this is probably because factory panhards are flexy stampings with rubber bushings while aftermarket watts links are bigass tubes with heim joints. I've never done a back to back between a heim jointed tubular panhard and a heim jointed watts. It could be that a proper panhard is "good enough". The factory panhard certainly isn't though.
I'm starting to doubt I will sell the Whiteline Panhard rod and brace anytime soon. Been getting lowball offers. I might just try it out anyways and compare it to the Fays2. I would love to make an undercarriage video comparison of the stock PHR, Whiteline PHR, and Watt's link but I don't have a GoPro-style camera.
I installed the Fays2 yesterday and took pictures along the way. Here's the car up on ramps...
...which turned out to be my biggest mistake. If ever I needed a lift, it was for this install. I had very little space to swing wrenches, and what should have taken two hours got stretched to five! Then again, I am a lousy mechanic and I hit a couple of snags on the way.
Anywho, here's the stock Panhard rod and brace:
And here they are removed to make way for the Fays2 frame. Oddly, the stock Panhard rod sounds like it is filled with sand or some other loose ballast, because I could hear and feel it shift inside the rod like one of those rain sticks.
Here's where I hit my first snag. The Fays2 manual warns that, because of manufacturing tolerances, one of the holes for the Panhard brace may need to be ground out 1/8"-1/4" so the bolts can fit. Unfortunately, my Mustang happened to be one of those special cases:
So after cringing at the thought of grinding on my new car, destroying the last Dremel grinding bit I had on hand...
...and a whole lot of jimmying, I got the frame in place. Then I hit my next snag. There are two bolts for the Panhard brace that screw vertically into the car on the driver's side. The problem was the threads on one of the bolts was extremely tight. At first, I thought it was due to interference from the flag nut that holds in the swaybar end link (seen here).
So I removed the frame for the umpteenth time, only to discover that one bolt was hard to thread even without the frame or flag nut in place. At first I thought it was cross-threaded but it seemed like a bitch to install no matter how carefully I inserted it. I used some gray moly grease (all I had on hand) to lube up the threads. After very carefully inserting it and watching most of the grease squeeze out of the threads, I tried it one more time and the bolt finally screwed in. Finally, the frame was installed!
Next came the passenger side axle clamp:
And then the driver side:
Here you can see the driver side loosely fitted but not clocked all the way to 9 o'clock (relative to the ground, if it were parallel) so I could install the Watt's bars. The passenger side is at about the 4 o'clock position.. Before the bars, I installed the propeller.
I adjusted the Watt's bars as per the instructions, or at least as best I could.
Then did one more test fit before replacing the standard bolts with nylock bolts and torquing everything down.
Remember what I said about putting all this up on a lift? Yeah, when it came time to torque all of these bolts down I was in agony. There was very little space to move my wrenches (esp. my 1/2" drive stuff), my arms were tired, I was constantly dropping the wrenches, etc. Very time consuming and very not fun. But somehow, I plowed through it, and here is my Fays2 Watt's link, finally installed:
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure everything is torqued down to spec. The frame's not going anywhere, but it was difficult to use my torque wrench on the axle clamps and propeller. I doubt anything is going to shake loose- I used blue Loctite and many of the bolts are nylock - but I will double-check the fasteners later this week. However, I am hearing some clunking over slow speed bumps, which leads me to believe I need to do some adjusting. Given how much of a bitch this thing was for me to install in the first place, I think I'll take it to a shop for final adjustments.
Impressions? I haven't driven it hard yet (My "victory lap" around local back roads and onramps was constantly interrupted by Sunday drivers). In terms of more sedate driving, there's a subtle but definite difference. Initial turn-in seems quicker and crisper than stock, and the back end feels more controlled and much less nervous over bumps, especially mid-corner. This is good since the Mustang suffers from a lot of body motion, which makes it tough to take through corners. The S197 is capable of great cornering but at least stock the body motions make it hard to keep steady in a corner because it makes you think something's wrong, even when there isn't. The body motion isn't totally gone, that's what my Konis will be for. The car tracks straight and true even when launching, whereas stock Mustangs are known to kick their rear ends out during a hard launch. I'll try to update this space with my hard driving impressions once I get around to it.
Nice!
OT, does Ford not slap some paint on the axle? Your car isn't very old at all!
Make sure those axle clamps are VERY tight. Use thread locker on them, too. You don't want those things slipping. Also, make sure there is no binding of the arms during the suspension's entire travel. That center bolt can shear off...
You can also adjust the rear roll center by moving the propeller up and down in that frame.
Sorry that thing is bright red. You can always remove it and have it powdercoated blue if you want!
In reply to z31maniac:
No they didn't. Apparently the rust that forms on the axle will form a protective layer that will prevent further corrosion of the axle. Ether that or all the diff fluid released from the breather tube on the driver's side. At least, that's Ford's official line. I might slap some POR15 on the axle in the future.
In reply to Sky-Render:
How can I simulate the full suspension travel on a stationary car? I'm not feeling any binding so far, and that includes taking a couple sweeping onramps at... erm... not exactly legal velocities. The arse end feels planted! I applied blue Loctite to everything anyways and will reapply where needed when I check the torque settings later this week.
When I finally get the rest of the suspension installed I will have the Watt's geometry adjusted by the shop the same time I get an alignment done. It will need it once lowered.
Between the red Fays2 Watt's linkage frame, blue Steeda springs, and Koni yellow dampers, my suspension will look like a Lego set! Just like yours!
I'm glad that thing is being put to good use!
If you have access to a four-post lift, put the thing up in the air, grab the chassis, and pull it down. Or put it on jack stands and use a jack under the pumpkin to compress the axle. I thought the instructions for that Watts link specified ways to check for binding.
Oh, yeah. The sway bar WILL hit the Watts frame under full droop. That's normal, and you shouldn't have that happen on the street unless your last name is "Duke."
While the watts linkage is clearly superior, one thing that always pops into my head when I see a Fays2 setup is weight. Do you know how much more it weighs than the panhard rod?
Whens the torque arm coming ? lol
bravenrace wrote: While the watts linkage is clearly superior, one thing that always pops into my head when I see a Fays2 setup is weight. Do you know how much more it weighs than the panhard rod?
About an order of magnitude.
The Fays2 is pretty beefy- about 32lb total. The frame and propeller are sprung weight, the clamps and bars(?) are unsprung.
Why do I need a torque arm? The V-6 only has 305hp/280lbf-ft at the crank.
RexSeven wrote: Why do I need a torque arm? The V-6 only has 305hp/280lbf-ft at the crank.
Which is the torque arm you speak of?
I thought it was two lower trainling links + one upper that holds the axle other than the lateral device you just replaced.
alfadriver wrote:RexSeven wrote: Why do I need a torque arm? The V-6 only has 305hp/280lbf-ft at the crank.Which is the torque arm you speak of? I thought it was two lower trainling links + one upper that holds the axle other than the lateral device you just replaced.
Torque arm allows you to ditch the upper arm IIRC.
http://www.griggsracing.com/index.php?cPath=4332_4310_4348_4322_2055_3840
Um - those aren't used on this chassis. This chassis has a proper three link, not that retarded fairmont suspension.
slightly OT: while those rims are still fresh and clean, get a good coat of wax on the inboard sides to keep 'em from getting all skanked up with brake dust and road grime.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Um - those aren't used on this chassis. This chassis has a proper three link, not that retarded fairmont suspension.
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?products_id=571
Don't have an opinion either way, just pointing it out.
z31maniac wrote:DILYSI Dave wrote: Um - those aren't used on this chassis. This chassis has a proper three link, not that retarded fairmont suspension.http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?products_id=571 Don't have an opinion either way, just pointing it out.
That asks the question, what makes that better than the upper arm? The upper link partially takes out torque wedge (but it would be better on the side). And loading wise, it seems to be better to have the arms on the top and bottom.
It just seems as if it's there as tradition, as opposed to being better than the upper link.
I've yet to hear of a S197 that uses a torque arm in place of the upper control arm besides those running the Griggs kit. A few Mustang autocrossers (including Sam Strano) have said Griggs jumped the gun with some of their parts when the S197 came out, and assumed the S197's rear suspension would be similar to the Fox's and SN95's. Not that Griggs' stuff isn't high-quality or doesn't work, but the torque arm isn't necessary in this case.
Adjustable upper and lower control arms might find their way into my car in the future but for now I want to keep it simple.
FYI to anyone interested in the V-6 Performance Pack, GT Track Pack, or Boss 302 Mustangs: [fake Italian accent] The Pirelli P-Zero tires are-a pricey meat-a-balls! [/Italian]
Got a flat left rear tire yesterday. The puncture is too large to be patched. This on top of a slowly-leaking left front tire that I hope can be patched or replaced under Pirelli's defect warranty.
I need to get off my lazy arse and sell the rest of my leftover Mazdaspeed3 stuff.
Timely bump, as I just picked up a base 2013. 6spd as my new DD.
Still hard to believe its only a $20k car.
I had a 2013 V6 as a rental car on vacation last week. I was impressed, especially with the fuel economy.
The main difference I felt was that the power delivery seemed to be about 1,000 RPMs higher before you got a surge of acceleration.
Slow leak up front was due to a screw in the tread. Got that repaired today. Thank FSM, because I don't want to drop another $450* to have one. motherberkeleying. tire. replaced.
Also replaced the awful front stock speakers with Pioneer TS-D6802R speakers. MUCH better! I know, they don't add eleventy-bajillion horsepower or pull 7g on the skidpad, but this is still my daily-driver and it's not like I'm turning my Mustang into a decibel dragster. I might replace the rear speakers too, and that's it.
*tire+mounting/balancing/etc.
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