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Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/1/20 8:34 a.m.

The dash comes off around the vin, it's attached to the metal.  There's also a hidden one on the firewall behind the heater box.  I'd leave it be and not mess with that.  The amount of not stock it is makes the value no different if it's a base 81 or 78 trans am.  Plus federal laws and whatnot.  
 

t top roof swaps have been done.  They're cool and all but I wouldn't.  Depending on which t tops you have, earlier cars used tops that were cut into a normal roof so one could in theory remove all the top pieces, make a template off the donor and cut away.  Later were gm tops with a different factory roof stamping.  There were gm tops, hurst hatch tops and c&c tops but my 2nd gen knowledge is rusty.  

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/1/20 9:30 a.m.

In reply to Patrick :

800 dollar one is rusty from pics. Found another bare bones roller farther away 76 T/A with extras for 2k

 

I'm driving down today to see if he'll keep the extras and come down on price some

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/1/20 5:10 p.m.

Few pictures of the 76 T/A 

Its at least 30% more rust free, no holes in doors, rockers or floors 

trunk had a quarter sized hole but the metal around it was solid, frame from what I saw was solid

One inner door had a little rot, nothing terrible

the guy occasionally does cheap hurry up paint jobs to prevent it from rotting

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/1/20 5:33 p.m.

That one looks way better.

the orange one you mentioned in your other thread, it wasn't a 78 trans am with a 80-81 nose and a 9" rear and about the same color orange as a browns helmet was it?  

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/1/20 5:33 p.m.

This would be the last T/A I could buy for a few months, should I get it, lets hope I didnt miss nothing

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/1/20 5:35 p.m.

In reply to TurboFocus :

If you have any questions or need to send me pictures before making a commitment pm me and i'll send you my number.  I am a huge 2nd gen guy and have had several camaros and know where all the trouble spots are

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/1/20 5:41 p.m.

The other one was bright orange I dont remember the nose but I think it was a 77-78 nose.

No clue on the rear end 

The damage to the body's rear end was incredible.

Go ahead and hit me with the trouble spots

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/1/20 7:57 p.m.

The one in the pics posted today appears to have either a 70-72 or a 73 style endura bumper conversion. Selling off the bumper and related parts might easily recoup quite a bit (or all +) of the purchase price. The last endura bumper I sold on Ebay was in very nice condition and went for 1,200.00 stripped. No headlight brackets, no headlight trim rings, no, headlight hardware, no grills, no grill brackets, no big bumper brackets, no small bumper brackets, just a completely stripped bumper.

The 70-76 style TA hood would be an easy sell and depending on what year the hood actually is might net more loot if it's in good condition. '70 hood was one year only and sells for $$$$.

Does the seller have a lower valance for the early style bumper? The triangle valance bracket? Any idea what year valance? Are the brackets for the fenders that an early valance bolts to present? Are the fenders from an early car and already have the fender brackets welded in place or are they the '76 fenders.

Lots more questions.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/1/20 8:17 p.m.
TurboFocus said:

If it's still available at next paycheck, its mine. My job owes me a chunk of change that should be getting paid out soon.

 

I do have a couple questions, first has to do with T-tops. How hard is the swap from a donor car?

The second is a little more complex.... I'm going to be keeping the T/A dash vs the base dash. Is the vin attached to the dash? I don't like the idea of popping it out nor do I like the idea of a mis-matched vin on the body and dash. WWGRMD? Make it obvious that it's been tampered with and register an 81? Swap the hidden vin from the TA and register as a 78? Or am I crazy and the dash comes off around the vin?

Halp!

Easiest way to do T top conversion is replace the entire roof. I strongly recommend against it.

The VIN plate is held in place (on the underside of the metal dash pad support) by a bracket with a couple pop rivets holding it in place. The VIN will remain in place if you remove the dash pad. Just leave the correct VIN with whatever unibody you use and register it as whatever the original unibody was. Your car will be so far from stock it will never matter as far as value is concerned and you'll stay legal. IIRC the dash pad with the grab bar above the glove box only came with the deluxe interior.

If you get a base, Esprit, or Formy without the gauge package you'll want to swap the wiring harnesses from the car you already have to make it easy to swap all the gauges etc.

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/2/20 2:21 p.m.

well i pulled the trigger. project not rusted to hell and back firebird trans am is a go!

looks like it was originally a 4speed car or someone put the 4 speed panel in the car. how much are built jerichos or muncies going for these days?
the saginaw that comes with it is supposedly made of glass for what i wanna do. 

NOT A TA said:

The one in the pics posted today appears to have either a 70-72 or a 73 style endura bumper conversion. Selling off the bumper and related parts might easily recoup quite a bit (or all +) of the purchase price. The last endura bumper I sold on Ebay was in very nice condition and went for 1,200.00 stripped. No headlight brackets, no headlight trim rings, no, headlight hardware, no grills, no grill brackets, no big bumper brackets, no small bumper brackets, just a completely stripped bumper.

The 70-76 style TA hood would be an easy sell and depending on what year the hood actually is might net more loot if it's in good condition. '70 hood was one year only and sells for $$$$.

Does the seller have a lower valance for the early style bumper? The triangle valance bracket? Any idea what year valance? Are the brackets for the fenders that an early valance bolts to present? Are the fenders from an early car and already have the fender brackets welded in place or are they the '76 fenders.

Lots more questions.

guy said he was doing a 73 conversion on the car. i guess the third pic didnt actually load into my last post. ill drop it here

i didn't ask when i was there since i wasnt interested in the lower valence or any of that other stuff. However I will let you know tomorrow before 5pm local...
I was planning on selling the front bumper kit, the fenders off of one of the cars, rear spoiler/deck lid off of one of the cars and the rear fender flares (fronts were crunchy on the 76) off of one of the cars. If I lay them all out, could I have you tell me what they're worth? If you want any of it, obviously you and other GRM'ers get first dips

Clearly, this is my first 2nd gen FBody LOL

 

NOT A TA said:
TurboFocus said:

If it's still available at next paycheck, its mine. My job owes me a chunk of change that should be getting paid out soon.

 

I do have a couple questions, first has to do with T-tops. How hard is the swap from a donor car?

The second is a little more complex.... I'm going to be keeping the T/A dash vs the base dash. Is the vin attached to the dash? I don't like the idea of popping it out nor do I like the idea of a mis-matched vin on the body and dash. WWGRMD? Make it obvious that it's been tampered with and register an 81? Swap the hidden vin from the TA and register as a 78? Or am I crazy and the dash comes off around the vin?

Halp!

Easiest way to do T top conversion is replace the entire roof. I strongly recommend against it.

The VIN plate is held in place (on the underside of the metal dash pad support) by a bracket with a couple pop rivets holding it in place. The VIN will remain in place if you remove the dash pad. Just leave the correct VIN with whatever unibody you use and register it as whatever the original unibody was. Your car will be so far from stock it will never matter as far as value is concerned and you'll stay legal. IIRC the dash pad with the grab bar above the glove box only came with the deluxe interior.

If you get a base, Esprit, or Formy without the gauge package you'll want to swap the wiring harnesses from the car you already have to make it easy to swap all the gauges etc.

strongly recommend against because it ruins the structure of the car like T-top cars had difference roof reinforcements that non T-top cars? or because its difficult?
that makes the whole vin thing way easier, thank god.
ooooh, the 78 has the grab bar :D
awesome, ill swap the harnesses!

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/3/20 3:19 a.m.

She's getting picked up at 11 and delivered at 5

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
1/3/20 8:51 a.m.

Nice score on the '76! A few things:

-As NOT A TA said, the only differences body-wise from a 1977-78 are the nose, front valance, hood, and shaker. All of that should be a bolt-on affair from your other car.

-Selling that 70-73 nose should be easy. Everyone wants those. Same with the hood. They look wrong with the 1975-81 wrap-around rear window anyway!

-Unless you are having a professional body guy do the roof swap, I also strongly recommend against it, even with the current sunroof. Even then, it's still probably not a good idea unless the current roof is rotted. It's a last-ditch repair in many cases to save cars with provenance, but if you are building a street machine, it's not worth the trouble.

-What kind of drivetrain are you going with? Sticking with a SBC? If I had to do it all over again when I built my Pontiac 400, I would have gone LS, and I still sort of want to. It's possible to make a 6.6L LS engine using a 6.0L block and other parts, so that's my vote if you are going whole hog with this thing. Also, remember that SBC's didn't come in these until 80-81, so there are a lot of small things you'll have to change on this one to accommodate for the engine either way. Stuff like fuel line routing, engine mounts, etc...

 

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE HalfDork
1/3/20 9:27 a.m.

+1 on LS Swap. It's just such an improvement unless you're already in the hole with a good, running engine.

TurboFocus said:

well i pulled the trigger. project not rusted to hell and back firebird trans am is a go!

looks like it was originally a 4speed car or someone put the 4 speed panel in the car. how much are built jerichos or muncies going for these days?
the saginaw that comes with it is supposedly made of glass for what i wanna do. 

All the guys I've seen with old 4-speeds have pallets of them and still charge +$500 for each here in the Midwest. I don't get it at all- they aren't rated much higher than a WC T5 and the latter is easily sourced and more usable on the street. Not sure on the Jericho. I'd advocate for an LS with an AR5 5-speed out of a Colorado/Solstice/Sky/ect. and the bolt-on plate from FABbot- it's mostly OEM GM parts and the AR5 has been taking 600 Wheel horse with the Lexus guys.

SEADave
SEADave Dork
1/3/20 1:05 p.m.

If you convert a 2nd gen to manual, addition to the transmission itself, you need a bunch of other stuff like flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, z-bar, shifter, linkage, console, etc.   Since it appears that the 76 was originally stick and is full of parts, you may have a lot of that stuff already.   Even if you LS swap, which usually involves a hydraulic clutch, you will need the pedals at least. 

Nice project, will definitely be watching this one.    

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/3/20 4:59 p.m.
Tony Sestito said:

Nice score on the '76! A few things:

-As NOT A TA said, the only differences body-wise from a 1977-78 are the nose, front valance, hood, and shaker. All of that should be a bolt-on affair from your other car.

-Selling that 70-73 nose should be easy. Everyone wants those. Same with the hood. They look wrong with the 1975-81 wrap-around rear window anyway!

-Unless you are having a professional body guy do the roof swap, I also strongly recommend against it, even with the current sunroof. Even then, it's still probably not a good idea unless the current roof is rotted. It's a last-ditch repair in many cases to save cars with provenance, but if you are building a street machine, it's not worth the trouble.

-What kind of drivetrain are you going with? Sticking with a SBC? If I had to do it all over again when I built my Pontiac 400, I would have gone LS, and I still sort of want to. It's possible to make a 6.6L LS engine using a 6.0L block and other parts, so that's my vote if you are going whole hog with this thing. Also, remember that SBC's didn't come in these until 80-81, so there are a lot of small things you'll have to change on this one to accommodate for the engine either way. Stuff like fuel line routing, engine mounts, etc...

 

-lol my biggest issue with unloading a lot of this stuff is that i dont know the vaule of this stuff.
-I'll hold off on the roof then, I might cut it out and keep it for a rainy day. time will tell.
-LS will probably be whatever I get my hands on first. The 5.3's make plenty of power mostly stock anyways, Sloppy Mechanics squeezed 750whp with a turbo. my plan is eBay LS turbo, a th400 w/ a full manual valve body + transbrake. That's more than plenty for a mid 9 and more than I'll ever use on a true street. Creating a smoke show won't be a problem when I feel like it with that much power.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

it comes with a pretty complete pontiac 400, just in pieces. Ill probably get that running, mate it to the saginaw, take a video of the car moving and put the motor and trans up for sale. old stuff is pretty easy to work with so I dont see that taking more than a weekend or two to do.

does it break much beyond 600 wheel? I'd rather have an over built drivetrain than an over built motor if that makes sense. either way, that is an option now that i wasnt considering

 

SEADave said:

If you convert a 2nd gen to manual, addition to the transmission itself, you need a bunch of other stuff like flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, z-bar, shifter, linkage, console, etc.   Since it appears that the 76 was originally stick and is full of parts, you may have a lot of that stuff already.   Even if you LS swap, which usually involves a hydraulic clutch, you will need the pedals at least. 

Nice project, will definitely be watching this one.    

99% sure I got 99% of that stuff from that guy. I havent looked into pedal options for the 2nd gen but I imagine that there are plenty "bolt up" options available to this car.
Thanks! i'll try and keep this updated. So far it's faster than IG, my usual platform

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/3/20 6:12 p.m.

Well, the car showed up today. I had gotten a picture from the transporter that had showed the car on the trailer around 11am.

A few hours later, the car showed up! The same excitement of the 78 showing up wasn't there, but there also wasn't any let down either. The car, had 3/4 tires flat and only 2 of the 3 tires would hold air; I couldn't move the car into the garage. Tomorrow I'll get a jack and yank the car out of the elements, no real work will occur until the 9th when my tools arrive.

Here are a few pictures of the car getting unloaded. Plus a meme, since I can relate to it to an almost existential level. I can't stay away from crapppy cars lol what can I say?

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE HalfDork
1/3/20 6:20 p.m.

In reply to TurboFocus :

Horsepower on the AR5? Supposedly up to 600whp, 700 if you baby the shifts. Outside of that is no-mans land.

 

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/3/20 7:35 p.m.

You've got a lot going on so I'm just going to post random thoughts based on what I see and have read.

The guys who know these cars aren't really the Instagram crowd, they're 45-65 YO guys who primarily use TA/Firebird forums and some join facebook groups and use it a little.

The bumper is likely the 70-72 type and the grills are '72.

The 73 bumper is different construction for higher impact rating and weighs more. A stripped 70-72 bumper weighs 45 lbs IIRC.

You really don't want to sell of the bumper as a "kit". You'll collect twice as much selling off the grills, brackets, etc separately.

The front wheel flares are different so if you got some with the 76 you'll probably see they're different than the ones on the '78.

I don't see the brackets for the fenders that the early lower valance would bolt to so the 76 may have it's original fenders.

Don't break anything or throw anything away because you don't need it. Almost every part can be sold and some that are broken or appear worn out can be rebuilt. An example would be a Formula steering wheel. Someone will buy your crappy old wheel and send it out to be restored while keeping their old wheel on the car so they can drive it while waiting on the restoration process. Same goes for dash bezels, cracked dash pads and so on.

Even little tiny parts you might consider junk like the little horseshoe spring clips that hold wires under the dashboard can be sold. Some parts aren't reproduced.

Some parts are one or two year only and hard to find used in good condition. An example would be the inner fender extensions on the '78. They both rust out but the one under the battery is shot on most cars that were daily driven. I reproduce them occasionally but only if I don't have something better to do. None of the big aftermarket parts places reproduce them. https://lab-14.myshopify.com/products/77-78-firebird-formula-trans-am-inner-fender-extension-panel-left

The rear spoiler ends are different for the two years. The ones on the '76 were used from 72?-76. The center sections were made differently but appearance and mounting of the centers is the same from 70-81.

To do your 78 front end conversion it'll be easier to separate the whole front end on the rolling subframe. You'll literally part the car in half and bolt the '76 unibody onto the '78 front half of the car.

Even if the 76 was also an AC car originally you'll notice the engine turned dash panel is different.

If it's still good I'd keep the wiring harness from the '76 with it, including the under hood section. Also save the underhood wiring from the '78. Then you can splice the two harnesses to get the different headlights set up.

Clean off the passenger side of the '76 rear axle on the front side of the axle tube and get the codes stamped into it. Then you can find out if it has a posi unit and what gears were factory.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/3/20 8:07 p.m.

You have titles for both cars?

As mentioned most of us who own 2ng gens are getting older and mostly use forums. The two you'll want to join are TAC http://transamcountry.com/community/   and   http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=425   TAC members can give you lots of info and many have modified cars. Max perf is where the concours correct guys hang out and they can tell you the exact screw, nut, bolt for every part on your cars. There's a section for '74-'76 tech and another for '77-'81.

Don't throw out things like spare tires, spare hold down hardware, and bumper jacks. Restoration/show guys buy them. Last bumper jack I sold on Ebay went for over $100.00 plus shipping.

Even the spring rods for the trunk lid will sell. People break them and when guys clone cars that didn't come with rear spoilers they want to buy the stronger spring rods. The current reproductions aren't preferred over used OEM. Again, don't throw stuff out. Even the rusty '78 unibody may have body sections cut out and sold.

Does the 72 bumper have holes for a bird emblem (or imprint) on the header? The TA's didn't have an emblem while the base, Esprit, and Formulas had an emblem. You can look up under the header to see if holes were filled also.

Pontiac Historic services can provide you with all the info on the factory build of either car if you send them the VIN and some loot. http://www.phs-online.com/

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/3/20 8:21 p.m.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

not sure if thats the one for me. I heard the CD009's out of a 350Z or something were supposedly cheap and held the power I liked. Again, haven't looked into it yet; Not sure how I'd feel about any of those long transmissions since the lever would be so far back compared to any auto or old school 4speed

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/3/20 8:42 p.m.

While the LS swap is currently the rage I'll caution against it initially and recommend you just just use whatever you can of the old school engines, transmissions etc.   Otherwise you're adding a lot of work, expenses, and time before you are able to enjoy driving the car to keep up motivation. You've got a huge project already without adding an LS swap. Ya, I know there's GRMers here who can do it for $50.00 and a case of beer with buddies over a weekend but that doesn't happen for most.  The reality is that you'll end up spending thousands on gas tank, fuel pump, fuel filters fuel lines, headers, exhaust system, motor mounts, radiator, stand alone ignition, etc, etc etc.   See the LS swap build threads on the TA forums to get a real idea of the work involved and the associated costs.. 

Did you get shaker scoops and air cleaner bases with the cars?

Either car have tilt steering column?

Was there a driveshaft for the '78 with 9"?

Daylan C
Daylan C PowerDork
1/3/20 8:47 p.m.

In reply to NOT A TA :

As GRMer with an in progress LS project. I agree. I went straight to LS because my car didn't have an engine at all and was already partially setup for EFI. It's definitely added money and time to the build though. 

I'm not going to say don't do an LS, I'm just saying be ready for it to take longer and cost more than you expect.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/3/20 9:31 p.m.
GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE HalfDork
1/3/20 9:38 p.m.
NOT A TA said:

While the LS swap is currently the rage I'll caution against it initially and recommend you just just use whatever you can of the old school engines, transmissions etc.   Otherwise you're adding a lot of work, expenses, and time before you are able to enjoy driving the car to keep up motivation. You've got a huge project already without adding an LS swap. Ya, I know there's GRMers here who can do it for $50.00 and a case of beer with buddies over a weekend but that doesn't happen for most.  The reality is that you'll end up spending thousands on gas tank, fuel pump, fuel filters fuel lines, headers, exhaust system, motor mounts, radiator, stand alone ignition, etc, etc etc.   See the LS swap build threads on the TA forums to get a real idea of the work involved and the associated costs.. 

Did you get shaker scoops and air cleaner bases with the cars?

Either car have tilt steering column?

Was there a driveshaft for the '78 with 9"?

Agreed!

Also, yes the CD009 is the one from the 370z. Handles tons of power and there are bolt-on kits, but they are physically very long with a gearshift mount in an odd space for muscle cars. Also, i've heard they've ran under several names and tags, not just CD009 so you have to research.

TurboFocus
TurboFocus Reader
1/4/20 8:32 a.m.

I'm already expecting the initial drive train to cost ~5k+ 

Holley terminator X - $1000
5.3 used - $300 (sourced one already, if not I hear they're plentiful at junkyards). Apparently you just don't look at the cam bearings otherwise you have to replace them. (joke)
TH400 (Still my 'easy' button trans) - $800 on marketplace with a manual valve body and 3800 converter already in it. If not a few hundred bucks at a local yard since I hear that those are also plentiful. I can always build it to my liking later on
Ford 9" - In '78 firebird with a driveshaft from a TH350
Driveshaft - figure $350 to take what I have and adapt it?
I tried to make everything budget wise a little padded, if im vastly undervaluing something let me know.

That's about half the budget right there, not including a basic plan for a fuel pump system, for the car to move under its own power. We all know those little odds and ends, like coolant hoses/motor mounts/relocation brackets, etc, can quickly add up over $1-2k.
I don't necessarily have to do this all at once either. I just hate working with carbs and their unreliability, hard cold starts, constant fiddling to run right whenever the weather changes and poor convenience. An 'LS' bolts up to a TH350 with an extra $300 for adapters and such (this kit is $173, I just plan for everything to be over budget). A Terminator X kit comes with everything you'd need to get an LS moving and supports boost.

I took a peek at the stickied LS swap thread on TAC, none of it seems like anything I wasn't expecting. I'd have done a few things different like the ECU or I would see if I could turn the power-steering into PTFE AN lines over fiddling with different boxes and home depot adapters.
An LS will likely be the first thing done to the car. Im ready for a new struggle, the rest of my project is largely just spending money and turning a wrench.
Auto trans stuff will be new. The wiring will be the most ambitious wiring yet, but a wire is still, just a wire. Paint is the same on a larger scale, more than just a few panels.

In reply to NOT A TA :

That is probably the easiest way to do it but one of the cars will be in the grass so I don't know if I'll be able to move it on my own. Either way, a lot of those panels/parts will be coming off for paint; any major disadvantage I'm not thinking of with that?
Harnesses are a little beat up in each car but I think still mostly complete. I'll keep both and patch them up until the car is "finished"

Quite a bit to comment on as far as parts go and what I have. That might be best kept for the TAC forum, which I just signed up for.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

final trans is still likely to be a TH400, its just too cheap and easy compared to an expensive t56 kit or hoping a muncie will hold up long term to what I want the car to be. Exploring options is fun though




Todays plan for the Firebird is to find some car dollies and get the dang thing in the garage finally

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