78 rustbird

If you do go to the Maxperformance forum, don't mention the idea of doing an LS swap - they aren't looked at favorably over there (there's a long contentious discussion going on right now on the subject...I'm a moderator on that forum and I've been watching it closely to see if it's going to need to be closed.)   The Firebird/TA guys are very knowledgeable and can help with questions about which parts fit what years and so forth.  I'm more open to the idea of an LS engine myself, but having said that it is pretty easy to get big horsepower with a traditional Pontiac engine for a relatively reasonable price these days, and then  you don't have to do a bunch of adapting to make an LS fit.  A buddy of mine built a 468" stroker with Edelbrock heads and a Megasquirt port injection system for his '61 Bonneville that puts out something over 500 hp; it drives nicely on the street but flat out goes when you want it to.

I also question the need for the Holley Dominator system; did you get the idea from the Sloppy Mechanics? He used it in 8F8's because he needed it's processing power for staging and to reach his goals. If you're gonna be bombing around on streets, a re-tuned GM ECU from that 5.3 is perfectly fine and even has standard ethanol maps.

So yeah, I say build up and toss in the stock Pontiac big block to get it moving and begin piecing together the future LS swap so you can make use of deals and not cut corners. 

In reply to stuart in mn :

sometimes a good ol crucifixion is fun.... I'll probably end up joining that one at a later date.

I looked up some of that stuff that you had mentioned. My only issue is that for the same price (estimate $3500) I'd have the motor I'd want. Sure keeping the 400 is less fiddling, but I don't see a huge challenge with the fiddling.

I could do a quick price breakdown of everything I'd need to start a motor pulled from a junkyard. It would be useful for me later on anyways

1. A complete motor, on facebook market place all day long $300-500
2. Terminator X kit $1000
3. Motor mount kit $130
4. TH350 adapter kit $173 to about $350
5. Oil Pan kit $350
6. Coolant - figure $60 for hoses browsing NAPA? I have a Howe radiator in the 78 currently that looks up to the task. Electric fan kits look like theyre $200 all day long on ebay assuming i dont do the junkyard crawl around thing.
7. Fuel, Holley just makes it too easy $600 though 400 lph is a bit much for NA. $100 for a fuel pressure regulator and figure $200 for eBay PTFE AN fuel lines (if e85 is in my future). I'm sure a fuel cell and pump could be had for half of the holley kit.
8. Headers $200
9. Throttle cable will be crawling around the junkyard trying to figure out what'll work assuming what's in the car wont already work - $20

I cant think of any more major parts that I'd need at the moment, which puts the current high estimate total at $3710 and lower estimate at $2723. Neither estimate includes tiny things that could happen to either set up.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

I heard of it through holleys social media initially. Ive tuned stock computers before and i'd still need to get a wideband o2 $200, get another boost gauge (a cheap and ugly one), continue to deal with SCT with another license for $150 (I have their software already, no point in buying HPtuners too?) and open loop tuning. Correct me if im wrong but i thought the terminator x has WOT closed loop tuning which looks worlds easier than dealing with open loop MAFs and such. If stock GM ECUs have more functionality than I give them credit for, then let me know. It's hard to deny how easy Holleys terminator X kit looks to install, tune and drive with all of its features packed into it; that or they have an amazing marketing guy.

If paint goes faster than I think it will and it becomes road worthy rather fast, the 400 will go in to drive around.
 

The lack of rust on the 76, it being already gutted and it really needing paint changes priorities a bit.
 

1. Sand, fix any of the small rust and paint.
2. Make it road worthy; brakes, ball joints etc
3. Drivetrain goes in
4. interior goes in
5. obtain snowflakes, decals etc

I bought a decent sized air 150PSI compressor that should allow me to use a detail gun and paint yesterday.
Sander, wire wheels, primer and paint will all come at a later date. I have house stuff to take care of first

Not sure on the closed loop portion- that part is definetly above me, so the Holly might be worth it if you're looking at all that.

The GM ECUs for the LS do have a lot of overhead and have built-in provisions for E85, per Curtis here. Not sure about it's total performance potential tho or where it tops out- what are you hoping to do?

As said above, if you go looking for info on the forums, be careful with talking about LS swaps and SBC stuff with those guys. They will flip their lid. A lot of T/A guys are purists, and swapping a Chevy engine into one is blasphemous. I used to be one of those guys. 

Another thing: If you do go automatic, the TH200-4R is the same overall length as a TH350, so they are worth considering. Driveshaft length is the same. You just need to modify the transmission crossmember. That's what I plan on swapping into mine at some point. 

Life is too short to worry about purity, feelings and what others would do with your car.  Do whatever you want with it, however you want.  If someone else gets upset about it, that's their issue.  You car, your dollars, your choice.  I for one love 2nd gen F bodies with modern engines and transmissions.  I can't imagine a better way to enjoy cruising down the highway.  Yes you can put modern EFI on a Pontiac engine, but you will need adapters to run a modern trans if you want to.  An LS can fit many different modern transmissions. 

Tell them an ls came in countless pontiacs and to ram their oldsmobile 403 up their ass sideways if they give you crap about it

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Not sure on the closed loop portion- that part is definetly above me, so the Holly might be worth it if you're looking at all that.

The GM ECUs for the LS do have a lot of overhead and have built-in provisions for E85, per Curtis here. Not sure about it's total performance potential tho or where it tops out- what are you hoping to do?

I'll need to double check that, if it doesnt have WOT closed loop or stock PCMs do have WOT closed loop tuning then I'll need to do a deep dive into what each PCM can do. I think we can all agree Holley wins the easy button as far as install and fire goes.
Car will be primarily a street car but it would be foolish to string out a 5.3 to unusable levels and not take it to the track on occasion imho. Otherwise a sniper EFI kit and the Pontiac 400 would be more than plenty for purely street use.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

The OG 78 'bird has a th350 in it, though ill keep that in mind if I happen to send the one i have to an early grave. I have a lot going on with each car and exploring what the possibilities are lol is the TH200-4R stronger than a TH350? I was always under the impression that the TH350 was better?

In reply to AnthonyGS :

lol sometimes I enjoy watching a dumpster fire begin on a forum, its can be decent entertainment. Well, at least facebook dumpster fires on car pages can be entertaining; I'd assume the same for the forums. No one was touching either of these cars, people around here seem to go for running examples over stuff like this. Not sure why, old cars are not all that difficult to fire up when it was dead before; assuming you know where to find parts (LOOKING AT YOU OPEL ASCONA). Luckily, the USA, unlike Germany, actually has parts for cars older than 10 years old; and tools, oh my god the ability to find tools here is amazing!
The trans I want to use is an old trans lol It seems to hold power just as well as a 4L80e and I think are usually a little more available than the 4L80e. If I come across a 4L80e for the same price then I'll absolutlely be fine picking one of those up instead. I'll likely end up getting my trans from a yard and depending on price differences, a 5.3 already pulled. I'll feel a little guilty turning a manual car into an auto but I don't think there is a good option for a manual thats in my budget, strong enough for my future power goals and that fits the car well.

In other news!

This picture was more effort than its worth.
I am quite elated to know that the final car that'll hit the road is out of the elements and is safe and sound :D

I have a nicer picture of the same thing taken from my DSLR that I'll upload later. maybe...

Patrick said:

Tell them an ls came in countless pontiacs and to ram their oldsmobile 403 up their ass sideways if they give you crap about it

lmfao, no one was touching these cars. There are more birds out there than people are going to restore, they can absolutely shove it if it bothers them so much.

TurboFocus said:

This picture was more effort than its worth.

Sometimes not going backwards is progress.

In reply to RandolphCarter :

true, just hard to justify $450 worth of car dollies and an entire day of struggling to get the car in the garage seems a tad excessive to me.
I'm still relieved that the car wont be in the elements any longer!

More random thoughts. Please keep in mind I'm not a purist and have no problem with people swapping in 9" rears, 5-6 speed manuals, overdrive autos, Fuel injection, BBC's, SBC's, LS engines, Buick engines, Olds engines or any thing else including Coyote's. I'm a 2nd gen F body cheerleader! However in this case I think adding an LS/drive train swap would create an almost impossible project because you'd be dumping all of your time and money into the car for many, many, years with no driving enjoyment and that gets really old after 10-15 years.

Look at the two unfinished project cars you bought. Both were relatively small projects. 78 guy had the drag race dream. Doubt he ever made it to the track because the fuel pressure regulator mounted on the firewall is a huge red flag in tech inspection. 76 90's wheels guy had the early nose swap dream. We can see that didn't get finished. It's very easy to run out of time, money, stamina, desire, or have life get in the way of progress.

Taking two rusty 45 YO modified/hacked parts cars apart, selling off unneeded parts and building one roadworthy car out of them is a huge project by itself. HUGE!

Bodywork & paint on a 2nd gen Trans Am is a LOT of work compared to most of the popular cars of the era. There are a lot more parts that take a lot of time to remove, strip, repair, & prep & then paint separately and install. Even body shops often under estimate the work involved on these cars and frequently end up in trouble with unhappy customers because the current shop employees hadn't ever done one so original estimates were waaay too low.  If a shop tells a 2nd gen TA owner they'll do basic prep & paint for 5 grand with no rust repair there's gonna be a problem.

More types and quantities of materials are necessary to do the body & paint work compared with other cars of the era. Soft plastic repair and hard plastic repair two part materials are needed in addition to regular bondo, primer, sealer, and paint. You'll use a lot more sandpaper, wax & grease remover, primer, thinner, tape, masking materials, and paint because of the losses spraying all the small parts along with the extra materials that end up staying on the parts.

Parts most cars of the era don't have or are different on a TA that require extra time & materials.

Three rear spoiler sections

Rear bumper cover

Four wheel  well flares

Four wheel well flare welting strips

Four side running light bezels

Urethane nose/bumper cover

Front spoiler

Shaker scoop

Two fender air extractors

Two grills

Two tail light bezels

Four door mirror sections

Trunk filler panel isn't welded in like most cars so it has to be removed for paint.

Most people think "Pffft how much extra time could the pieces take?" so I suggest to pick just one small piece like a fender flare or an air extractor and make it ready to install. Sand all the crappy old paint materials off, repair any damage like cracks or missing chunks, fill nicks/chips & sand, prime, sand, seal, and then paint car color to see if they did a good job.

There's a reason there's sooooo many 2nd gen Trans Ams sitting disassembled in garages all over the country. It's a LOT more work than most people expect to do even for a DIY home garage driver quality repaint.

TurboFocus said:

In reply to RandolphCarter :

true, just hard to justify $450 worth of car dollies and an entire day of struggling to get the car in the garage seems a tad excessive to me.
I'm still relieved that the car wont be in the elements any longer!

Those car dollies are the key to the front end swap!

I've done the swap a few different ways including having the front suspension, wheels, core support, etc. still in place but these pics will give you ideas.

[URL=http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Garage%20and%20shop/004_zpsbybqzhgt.jpg.html][/URL]

[URL=http://s240.photobucket.com/user/NOTATA/media/Garage%20and%20shop/002_zpsiwtxxfqf.jpg.html][/URL]

NOT A TA said:

TurboFocus said:

In reply to RandolphCarter :

true, just hard to justify $450 worth of car dollies and an entire day of struggling to get the car in the garage seems a tad excessive to me.
I'm still relieved that the car wont be in the elements any longer!

Those car dollies are the key to the front end swap!

wow, I didn't even think of that. Now I'm glad I have them because I was not about to huff that stuff over like some olympic weight lifter.

In reply to NOT A TA :

Yea, taking it all apart, sanding and painting I was planning on taking a few months. Especially with my barely cutting it compressor; 27 gal, 150 PSI. Plan was to use a detail gun and just struggle the whole way through, I need to find an autobody paint supply shop and talk to them about what grit sand papers and primers I'll need for the plastic parts vs metal parts. The rust converter and sealer stuff too, wire wheels are only so effective
I have a couple orbital sanders waiting in my amazon prime cart, my wife is gracious enough to help on my projects.

I also have a knack for working quickly compared to many of my friends, the only failed project I've has was due to the fact that I was moving across the atlantic and had to revert to OEM (which I did in a day) to clear customs. Only once has a car sat for more than a few months without me working on it (first time turboing the focus, got distracted by the new opel at the time). I swapped a new motor into it, the got cut off and crashed on the autobahn, replaced an entire rear quarter in a smaller 1 car garage and was back out on the road again.
I understand the concern, and I think I put this in another post, but if I dont have everything for the swap by the time paint is done, the 400 and saginaw or th350will get dumped in. It's like 7 wires to start one of these old motors.

I promise you, shortly after the 9th you'll see either the front end of the 76 get torn down OR the 400 be built in a weekend or two. I don't have friends here yet lmao, what else am I gonna do? play video games 24/7? that gets real boring after 3 hours

Here's a thread I wrote a while back about repairing & painting some of the TA specific body parts. The Endura bumper is a different process than your urethane ones but the flares, rear spoiler, and other parts are the same process as yours. http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=75906.msg710968;topicseen#msg710968

Guys at your local paint store might or might not be familiar with restoration of parts from 45 years ago. Many weren't even born yet and aren't familiar with how to strip the old lacquer paints or which primers need to be used on which materials. I didn't mention specific sandpaper grits or things like which parts are or aren't compatible with high build primers in that thread but I can tell you what has worked well for me as you get to each step.

"Yea, taking it all apart, sanding and painting I was planning on taking a few months. "

^^^^  Sounds possible,.... unless you have a regular job.

NOT A TA said:

"Yea, taking it all apart, sanding and painting I was planning on taking a few months. "

^^^^  Sounds possible,.... unless you have a regular job.

Thanks for the link, I'll be going through it right now!
We'll make it a date, I bet by the time May rolls around I'll either be done with paint or close to it. At best I'll be a head of schedule, at worst I'll have a little extra motivation to get it done.

Car got cleaned out today of all the junk in the cab and all the junk in the trunk. Dash and rear seats need to come out along with a few other tiny things. Garage has become a disaster recently, so I'll likely spend tomorrow after work getting it in workable condition again. If time allows, I'll vacuum it out with the new shop vac I picked up at costco today.
New tools are cool but damn, getting settled in is always a little expensive.

Pictures show the cleaned product and everything 'put away'

Neat wire reinforcement tool! That hot stapler looks super handy, I'm used to building up fiberglass and fiberglass filler then just sanding away any extra material

TurboFocus said:

Neat wire reinforcement tool! That hot stapler looks super handy, I'm used to building up fiberglass and fiberglass filler then just sanding away any extra material

You can't repair the hard plastic flares or soft rubber spoilers with fiberglass and have it last. Many have tried and eventually it fails. I'll add that if you get the thought to bond the flares to the body and smooth them in, forget it.

I am in a somewhat similar situation as you so i figured i would finally make an account and post some info i have dug up. I have a  cherry 1980 3.8l esprit, but with all the sport options, spoiler and snowflakes.I'm doing an ls swap(5.3 ge3 4 aluminum block), only reason i would consider doing a pontiac motor would be if it were originally a v8 and i didnt know how to mess with efi. I have done a few other ls swaps so here are some of my learnings. 

1. I odnt know if anyone has mentioned this, bu the pontiac th350 will not simply bolt up to an ls or even a sbc for that matter, Pontiac had to be different so they use a different bellhousing pattern. 

2. If you have all the original parts for a manual bird then you could run a muncie/t10 4 speed and attach that to the ls, you run a big block bellhousing and the only custom part you need is a flywheel(you can use an early 2000's truck flywheel but they are cast). I had a custom unit billet made for $400 and it is drilled for a variety of clutches. I use the muncie in my drift car and it is indestructible compared to a t56. 

3. If you want this to be a reliable driver and dont plan on constantly modifying the car then i would highly suggest staying with a stock ECU. I run MS3x(megasquirt) on a turbo setup and it works great but at the compromise of all over drivability.  Gm spent millions tuning their ecu for cold starts, hot starts, high altitude and all the part power throttle settings. Those take lots of time to tune with a standalone. I have never worked with the holley units but yes they seem easy, but why pay a grand for one? You can pay someone a 100 bucks to tune your ecm for whatever cam and intake combo you have and retain the reliability of the stock unit.

4. Open loop vs closed loop tuning. I have a background in control theory but here is a good explanation of how it applies to engines.

https://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/11/terminology-and-confusion-part-2-olvscl.html

 You dont want closed loop control at WOT and i doubt either system does closed loop tuning at WOT. You want the fastest system response at WOT, closed loop control during dynamic operation can be very tricky and needs limits. 

I'm excited to see the direction you take this build, with the amount of aftermarket support and documentation for puting an ls into a 2nd gen fbody you be nuts to not to. 

In reply to mitch5 :

The TH350 is bolted  up to a Chevy 350 at the moment, I should be ok with that! Wasn't aware the Pontiac had to be THAT special with a new bolt pattern on the bell housing.

its not original, the car was supposedly ordered as a 455 4-speed muncie but supposedly the owner before the seller kept those for another car. i dont remember the full story... either way, it was sold to me as a pontiac 400 and saginaw 4 speed.

plan is turbo in the future and string it out, I prefer to do all my own tuning over paying for a canned tune or doing the mail order bride thing; both of those options get old fast, for me anyways. supposedly the holley unit works "fine" with drivability as well but any LS swap is a ways off. I usually only concern myself with the problem infront of me, its just how my brain operates. You've probably noticed how scatter brained this post is, so far the only solid things I've done are collect and a little cleaning. Stuff from germany arrives in two days, after that I should be home free to work three-ish days a week on the car; three-ish because 40 hours in 4 days is a little rough to me.

Some of the newer ECUs coming out are running closed loop 100% of the time (like the ones for the mustangs coyote motor). We can all assume that the terminator X is a loss leader designed to get you roped into holley's expensive line up and its working. I wouldn't be surprised to see closed loop WOT + the bajillion other features to get you hooked on holley and then you spend money to connect your laptop to the ECU, $1000 on a larger screen,  stupid expensive harnesses when you forget to ziptie it out of the way, more brand loyalty, etc
I know most wideband O2s (the only exhaust sensor it comes w/ iirc) have a narrow band simulator but with the processing speeds of newer computers and faster ecus getting cheaper all the time... why wouldnt the industry go closed loop all the time? safer for the motor, more consistent; what are the downsides other than cost? people pay for convenience, picking up a pizza is cheaper than delivery but its sure nice to have it delivered so you can watch the game.
most I can see after your initial tune is that you'd probably just turn adaptive learning down/severely handicap how much it can change during WOT. basically let it account for your local weather.

I'm excited too man, long term the only thing I've made my mind up is turbo LS and a bandit-esque car. the path to getting there? who knows! Pontiac 400, Chevy 350 or straight to LS? 

In reply to NOT A TA :

how long is eventually? There's a small chunk missing in the 76's rear right spoiler end

never planned on molding the flares, i guess i never will now lol



In other news!
Tomorrow is my friday! cleaning garage is probably all I'll get done, thursday probably won't have much going on either. Best chance of actual work is friday or saturday

Rear spoiler repair will hold up a long time with fiberglass.

I missed that but yes if you have the chevy motor in than you got the right trans and you are headed in the right direction if you stay with the chevys. Apparently the trannys are the same length so you can use the Pontiac drive shaft. It would be tempting to stick a 383 in there and call it done. Speaking of Pontiac being different, from my observations all the Pontiac E36 M3 is flipped. Like the location of the starter, fuel lines, and battery. 

I guess the question would be is what is the donor car setup for currently, if all the wiring is stripped out then you have a blank slate. 

As for the ECU, sounds like you want tune ability and options. I would get the MS3X unit, you can run damn near any engine on it and there is tons of documentation.  The only downside to the ms3 is that there is no easy cheap way to hook up a digital dash. If you have basic soldering skills then you can get everything for less than $400 to build it. Ms3 is really good for ls engines too where you have quiet a few different combos of crank and cam sensors. Ill add that the support from diyautotune for the megasquirt line is fantastic. Detailed technical email replies within an hour kind of good. 

Not related to firebirds....

On the subject of closed loop tuning, I did a quick search and it sounds like they use closed loop to adjust trim to the fuel table. I could be wrong my only experience with automotive tuning is megasquirt but my experience comes from turbine engines. The reason why you wouldn't want to go full closed loop would be a matter of dynamic response. In simple terms a full closed loop  means your  fuel control loop consists of  an input like say airflow and your output is required fuel, say you have feedback that is in the form of your afr or actual fuel(This is essentially what a VE table is doing). Feedback from an 02 sensor is slow compared to what the engine is actually doing, so your engine response would be limited by your 02 feedback. 

Another thing to consider about closed loop operation is the stability of the system, If your feedback has error either due to latency or a bad sensor it can cause the system to be really unstable. A very good example is the 737 max MCAS system with the trim stabilization, that control had incorrect limits that without pilot overide would drive the plane into the ground. 

In reply to mitch5 :

ECU wise yea, tunability and features are important, easy is a major plus. Haven't dealt with anyone but SCT/Bullydog/Derive Systems (all the same company) but my initial impression was mediocre. It's not a particularly difficult system to work with but at the same time none of it felt intuitive, though that's likely due to the older PCM designed solely for NA and I'm cramming boost down its throat. 
I can solder but I often end up globbing solder on than letting it flow through the wires, a ready to go package is more of what I'm looking for; money is an issue but I don't mind spending it where it'll matter most (to me, everyone has different priorities in a build). I'll add the MS3 to the list of ECU's to look at, I didn't consider that learning a more universal ECU would be a major help future swaps that I can conjure up; that could be a pretty big deciding factor.

I appreciate you looking that up, I spent the lasts few days after work cleaning up the garage only to have all of our stuff arrive and ruin everything! Adjusting the fuel table, while helpful, isn't an end all be all feature. I remember a video on the McFarland youtube page (99% sure) where he sprayed a ton of nitrous from the bottle to the intake and the Holley ECU compensated for that on the fly. Granted, that was a Dominator/more expensive ECU than the terminator but imho that speaks volumes for Holleys ECUs and what initially turned me toward Holley. When the time comes to annoy the ever living heck outta the Holley and DIYautotune reps/salesmen, I'll clear up any and all features that interest me. The bar is set awfully high for Holley and set more reasonably for the MS3, whichever provides a better value will get my money.

In other news!
Plan for today is to re-clean the garage and vacuum out the car; I had it cleaned well enough but delivery of all of our other stuff did make it dirty once again. The long term plan for the weekend is to break the car down to be ready for sanding, that way when next weekend rolls around I can purchase my sanders and begin on that. If all goes well enough this weekend, I'll get a couple wire wheels and the rust converter primer stuff and hit some of the 'worst' spots in the cabin.
Wife is kind enough to take care of the unpacking mostly by herself... :D