'88 MR2 NA, building it up for the "One Lap" in 2018

Yeah, that's one thing I'm considering. Just saying screw it, deal with the fact im in SSM, and go nuts.  Just that it may lead in a direction not very conductive toward the one-lap goal if I do that.  Was having some talks with a couple organizers today about how myself, and a bunch of other guys in low powered 2-seaters, may get screwed by this change.  So there's a lot up in the air right now with how things are going to proceed.

I guess that's the rub of my issue.  I was doing two things with the car that were going along a similar path and worked well with each other.  Now those two things may go in very different directions.   I may have to choose one of those two things to the exclusion of the other.

-Hans

I may still have a lot of uncertainty what I want to do with this project, but I do know one thing for sure.......

I can still drive the piss out of it till I get that all figured out!

hhaase said:

I may still have a lot of uncertainty what I want to do with this project, but I do know one thing for sure.......

I can still drive the piss out of it till I get that all figured out!

 

First I've heard it up and running, and driving... so... how does it feel??  

Still have the original engine in it unfortunately.   So feels like the clutch is slipping.  

Long block on the new motor is 90% done but funding ran out for now.  

-Hans

Ok, I found my mental block on this project.  I actually haven't done much on it in about 8 months,  and I'm itching to get back at it, but can't find the motivation.  I finally sat down and examined my thoughts on this.

I'm absolutely dreading the process of pulling the engine on this car.  Having spent so much time in the engine bay already fighting the oil leaks has made me seriously dislike working on the engine.  BUT I have recently started picking up the pieces to get started again.  Last week I got the valve covers and oil pan hot-tanked, and the flywheel resurfaced.  So I can start working on things again at least.

Anybody want to come over and help me pull an engine?

-Hans

motivation is a tough subject... some people have plenty... others... it seems to come and go... and still others finding it is a struggle.

As to swapping it out... all I can offer for encouragement is, take it one step at a time... and be patient... don't beat yourself up... just do as much as you can... just keep going back.......

Exactly.  I want to work on in when my mind is in the right place,  and I don't want to berkeley anything up by forcing myself into it. There are days when I start to dream, and plan, and think of awesome ideas on the project.  And there are days when I'd trade it in a heartbeat for the right alternate vehicle.  I won't lie, I'd be extremely tempted if somebody offered up a sufficiently nice FSAE/Formula Vee or something of that nature. 

What I really need to sort out is if I am going to still push to do One-Lap with this car.  Some life changes have made that a more difficult concept and I'm tempted to make this car less 'street' and more autocross/track focused.  

I'm unable to offer a helping hand either, but as someone who also owns an AW11 and has a lot of other obligations and fun stuff I like to do, I understand. Jamming my forearms into the engine bay of the AW11 or go ride bikes with my kid?

Oldskewl has it right, just take your time, and tackle a little bit at a time, 30 minutes a day right? It'll go faster than you think.

I'm not sure what your situation is, but maintaining my AW11 is worth it when I can take a cruise with my little dude and we can both find our happy place out on the road (he naps in his car seat, I relive my younger days). I tend to do the work after he goes to sleep, 30 minutes here, 1 hour there depending if I have time. Still back inside to have a glass of wine with my spouse.

Also, it might seem daunting, but dropping the engine out of the AW11 is not as hard as frustrating as other jobs I've done in the automotive world. There is the usual mess of fluids that will inevitably happen when you pull coolant and oil cooler lines, but really, it's not bad. There is a lot more space than there seems since you don't have a steering rack or radiator or fans or a brake master or etc. etc. to deal with, and the hole out the bottom is much larger than the top.

I should add, it's doable solo. Just make sure it's solid on the cribbing or cradle or dolly or whatever you're going to lower it on before you lift the body up. Imagine you're working an assembly line backwards. Installation is the reverse of removal as they say.

If you get stuck, give it a break and come back here for some encouragement, of which we're in no short supply!

Ok...... enough of this crap,  I may not be back at it full bore, but I need to get my fun car out of the garage under its own power.  I haven't driven it in a YEAR!   Battery is on the charger now, replacement alternator is installed, I'm going to get back into the driver seat and re-acquaint myself with this car.

Also, I'm going to make a BIG change on this project, effective immediately.   One Lap is no longer the priority.   If I make it, I make it.  If I don't, I don't.  Nothing worse on a fun project than added stress.   I want the car to be trackable,  without requiring a trailer, and still able to drive semi-comfortably on the street.  

Anyway...... It will need the new engine installed soon, and the next big decision for me is a clutch.  I've decided to stick with the factory high-comp flywheel that I have, and NOT go with a lightweight.  Since I do autocross the car a lot I want that extra mass for standing starts, and I just don't want to have to worry about the damn thing.  I know it's a solid piece that won't let me down.   

Could use a clutch suggestion.   Something that won't break the bank,  can handle a mildly built engine with potentially a small turbo.  I don't mind increased pedal pressure, if anything I'd PREFER more pedal pressure than the worn out stock clutch.....I can't feel the damn clutch point at all on this thing, which drives me nuts.  The stock unit is just way too soft for me.

-Hans

Another thing I need to make a decision on before continuing, is if I'm going to install the timing belt covers or not.   In most cars it'd be a no-brainer, but they make any kind of maintenance an absolute nightmare on this engine/chassis combo.  It'll involve some re-routing of ignition wiring if I leave them off, and there is of course some risk involved.  But I am strongly leaning toward NOT installing the covers.

Just so damn hard to get at anything on the front of the engine with them in place.  Particularly if I want to change the cams or timing belt at any point, which I might.

-Hans

Hans, on the timing belt covers, I'd consider the amount of damage you might experience if you suck up a rock into your timing belt versus the actual amount of times you need to work on the front end of the engine. 

If you've changed the front seals, timing belt, and associated bits, you probably won't have to go in there for some time. Not having the timing covers may nag at you consistently, it would for me anyways. It'd always be in the back of my mind when driving.

I can't help ya on the clutch suggestion, but people have been building these puppies for a long time so lots of info out there in the archives! 

Stoked that you're back working on it! 

Worst case would be a snapped belt,  but during the build I did verify it's still a non-interference engine.  So I don't run the risk of internal damage like some motors do.  

I do have to make sure though that nothing will be hanging around loose in that area.  The biggest risk is not to the motor, but to whatever might get sucked into the belt.  Though this is always an issue on any engine, even with the usual V-belts. 

flywheel.... if possible find one from a Blacktop 20V...  still oem, but a bit lighter.  13# versus 15 or more...

clutch...  Im using stock AE92 GTS plate and disc. and so far they have held up in my 140whp 4AGE.  One thing to be cognizant with a heavier load plate is more load on engine thrust bearing......

I did think about tracking down the late 20v flywheel, but they've been a bit thin on the ground at reasonable prices, so I'll just stick with what I already have in-hand and ready to install.  There comes a time you just need to get E36 M3 done.

Speaking of that, I also ordered an Exedy Stage 2 clutch kit today with some ARP flywheel bolts..  Should carry me through nicely, and I'm perfectly fine with the higher pedal pressure.  It does have a sprung disk, I'm not crazy enough to get a solid.

-Hans

I've been going through a bit of a renaissance with my 86 mk1 so I've been re-reading this thread.  Quite the journey and you've been doing awesome work.  I can certainly understand the motivation problem.  I did the unthinkable when mine sat in the garage almost five years after my wife became pregnant with our twins.  In my case I was sort of forced to get it running again when we sold the house (lol), but working on it made me realize everything I poured into it over the years and it rekindled the old affair.  Your situation is different so all I can say is you're not alone in the motivation department and take a minute to appreciate how far you've come already.  Or you could just manufacture garage drama by creating fake deadlines and yelling at cardboard cutouts of junior & senior.  Seems to work on TV.

I am curious about a couple of things.  Don't hit me, but what do you estimate an engine build like this costs.  I know there's a lot of variables so a ballpark is fine.  My 16v is getting long in the tooth and I'd like to start putting together a succession plan.  OST - if you have some advice here it's welcome.

Second, I may have missed it deep in the thread history, but what is your suspension setup again?  What spring rates are you running and are you still running without the swaybars?  On that note if you're not already familiar, there was a couple of threads back in the day on MR2OC.com where Steve Hoelscher(sp?)/Xhead outlined his swaybar-less setup.  Your experience echoes a lot of what was said there (Part 1 & Part 2).  Once I get some repairs out of the way I'm going to give the setup a try so I'd love to hear what's been working for you.  BTW - we briefly talked about this in the other black AW11 thread documenting dherr's V6 swap.  Mine is black as well so that makes at least three of us on the forum. We should start a boy band.

Matt B (Forum Supporter) said:

 

 

OST - if you have some advice here it's welcome.

Motivation -  there is nothing more important, and so when it comes to a rebuilt engine for your MR2 - find a spare to rebuild.  Keep your engine in your car so that you can keep driving it to stay motivated.  Exceptions to this...  if your engine isn't running, or you are restoring a numbers matching car.

Plan on a minimum of $2500, unless you have a buddy @ the machine shop.  The #1 mod I'd recommend is more compression, followed (of course) by headwork.  A LOT depends on what you want when finished...  Below are 2 dyno plots, 1 is from Toyota on a stock 4AGE, it is rated at the crank.   the second dyno is "Skippy's" it has raised compression(including proper squish) and a ported head - with everything else stock - it is rated at the wheels.......

In reply to oldeskewltoy :

Gotcha - thanks for the info.  $2500-$3K doesn't sound crazy to me, but I realize that's the tip of the iceberg.  I don't want to derail this thread so I'll likely PM you and/or start my own at some point.

I'm probably over that already for my engine, I didn't keep receipts, but once you start modifying things the prices start adding up for sure.   Then the "might as well's" start adding up.   Clutch, hoses, belts, water pump, all those things accumulate. 

I am, unfortunately, about as far as I can go with the engine build .... can't really do any more without pulling the old one.   I need some of the timing cover pieces (I am going to keep the covers on),  and the back-half of the water pump.  A pile of parts arrived so I'm going to start the engine drop in the next few weeks I think.  All the spendy stuff is finally here, such as the clutch and so-forth.

The suspension, I have a Ceika system on there.  Inverted, remote reserviour's, the whole deal.   9k springs in the front and 6k in the rear.   The front springs are just too stiff though so I'm going to swap them to go 6k all around at some point.   I also eventually want to re-install the sway bar but I need to come up with a way to attach it to the front struts.   The Ceika's came with some goofy clamps that go around the coilover body.   But the coilovers rotate in their housings, not very much, but enough that it completely screws with the swaybar end links.  Drives me nuts.

-Hans

I can certainly understand the scope creep.  I'm just in the research phase and the temptation to go one step further "because rebuild" is strong, especially when you sprinkle cams into the equation.

As far as the suspension, what about the front stiffness wants to make you move to an even setup?  Handling characteristics or ride quality?  If it's the handling then are you still running swaybars?  

Thanks for playing 21 questions btw.

Matt;

Necro in my own thread,  but it's starting to warm up and I'm starting to get the urge again to wrench.

My main issue with the front stiffness is that the dampening just isn't enough to match the stiffness of the springs.  The front end bounces something fierce if it catches the right harmonic going down the highway.  That and looking at photos of sharp turns, the front inside corner is lifting.   My back can't take firmer back springs, so that means I need softer front springs.  I currently don't have swaybars on there because the CEIKA swaybar mounts are utter crap.  

I had been considering T3's GTX2 front control arms to add that swaybar mount back in,  but looks like they took the swaybar mounts off the AW11 version.

-Hans

Thanks for the update. I promised myself I'd try to the no-swaybar-front-stiff setup at some point so the data point is appreciated.   It's interesting that you're using softer rates than what ended up being the recommended setup back in the MR2OC threads and most of those guys were using OTS Koni yellows.  Did Ceika provide any shock dyno charts?  I only ask since they mention all of their dampers are custom valved and dyno tested.

Ceika promises a lot of things but long term have been a big disappointment, and that's where I'm struggling.   They constantly promised me dyno charts but I never got any.   They said the dampers are rebuildable and tune-able, but won't sell me parts to have that done.   The dampers just can't keep up with the spring rates, and apparently they changed the design on the remote style units and don't have any parts available to tune the valving.   If I can't supply parts, nobody is going to touch them to dyno and re-valve. 

So I'm stuck with my stomach lurching on the highway because it bounces so damn bad, and I don't like to drive at night because I can see how much the headlights are jumping up and down annoying other drivers.

Assuming I could get these stupid things re-packed to function properly I'd actually increase my rear rates.   But I don't know where to turn other than having to do a complete replacement. 

That is disappointing.  While the GC/Koni setup seems to work reasonably well enough for most folks it was good to see someone offer something else for our chassis that wasn't another Taiwanese white-label product with a different colored body.  

Suspension issues are future Hans problems.

Engine bay disassembly has begun.   

That is all.

Glad to hear that. Progress!