914 Widebody - k24 swap

TED_fiestaHP said:

A feature of the 914, a soft brake pedal is partly due to the master not solidly mounted.  That area looks a little rusty, so it might need some work anyhow.  The stronger pedal assembly should include mounting for the master, but it doesn't.

   You really do want to upgrade to MIG, you will like that a lot better than flux core.  Getting Argon refills is a little annoying, but the welding results are so much better.  TIG is a much different skill, better for parts that can be welded on the bench.

   Looks like a lot of work, keep us updated.

I think co2 is more appropriate for mig.  Or one of the mix gasses.

  I think Argon is kind of general use, but to make better welds on some materials, there are other shielding gases.  The welding supply shop told me for welding stainless the argon will work, but other gases would be better, but then going back to carbon steel the argon would be better.  I don't feel like getting a second tank, most of the stainless I weld is for exhaust.

    If you have gotten good with a flux core welder, you will really like how much better the MIG works.

    A spot welder is also handy, but often that is only practical for parts, but welding on the car, the car tends to get in the way.

     On thin metal try to avoid excess welding, it will shrink and warp.   The car was originally built with just spot welds.

I'll probably pull out all of my MIG kit to make sure I still have everything I need. Can't remember if there were bottle gauges or not. It's been years since I've used MIG or TIG but never had an issue with them when I did. I catch on to that stuff pretty quick.

I really need to re-organize the garage since I currently can only take up one bay. I can make it work as is, but this car isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so it makes sense to plan accordingly. Also need to figure out storage for the few interior pieces I have.

Lot's of cleaning, vacuuming, and scraping away chunks of floor deadening material. So far only found one rust spot near the rear corner of the firewall floor pan junction. Did some hammering in some sections to bring it all back closer to the shape it should be in. Only a couple spots really to work on but glad they all had memory to snap back into place.

Unfortunately I have some chassis wonkyness. I'm not quite square so it may need to be taken to a shop to pull on the driver side front corner a bit. In a cross directional measurement I'm shorter on that side by a whole centimeter.

I've stabbed around aggressively and only have the one hole in the passenger rear corner near the firewall. The other areas just need a wire brush and some sort of rust inhibitor. Really pleased with what I see so far. Need to track down some dry ice to remove the rest of the floor deadening material.

Nothing crazy to report. I planned to remove the gas tank and everything in that general area to assess any possible rust or repair work. Decided to take the day off so Wednesday will be my next chance to poke around.

However I did splurge on a part. I ended up finding both window cranks but not the screws. After seeing older Beetles share the same cranks I ordered up some $16 ones that I thought looked the part. So I officially have bolted on a new part. Unfortunately the driver side doesn't work so I'll have to pull the panel to investigate.

While twiddling thumbs at work I've been diving into plans for ECU and wiring. There's a few options on the table.

OPTION 1

Stock TSX ECU which essentially requires a couple modules and possibly some charcoal vent sensor trickery to work. There's one guy I've found that recently did the swap for an endurance race car in a Datsun 510 chassis, but it sounds like every time they start the car it goes into a relearn process. I'm not interested in that sort of thing and currently he's not sure the cause. This setup requires the stock key, immobilizer, ECU, some pedal sensor stuff to all talk nice to each other. ECU needs to be a manual transmission. Cost wise to add in everything that could potentially make it all work without any tuning from just ebay auctions hovers around $500. Not bad at all. This option intrigues me for cost and simplicity. Plug it all in and just drive. No tuning or whatever required.

OPTION 2

Typical k swap harness using a cable throttle. I can get a basic engine harness cheap as well as the universal adapter harness that gives me relays for accessories. Obviously this requires a throttle body. It also requires Hondata Kpro v4 which is about $800 if I supply an ECU case. All in all I would be spending about $1500. I may be able to get better deals on used parts and cut this down a little but most of the cost is the Kpro. This is a path many have gone before, so getting answers to questions should be considerably easy. I already have a cable throttle pedal so that's neat. This option intrigues me because I can add in a 50 degree timing gear as well as have room for upgrades tuning wise. It also makes integration into a non Honda chassis super simple. Is it worth the extra $1000? Probably.

OPTION 3

Custom RWD harness that's plug N play with a Haltech Elite 1500. I've gone this route before with my FRS k24 swap. Math wise it's minimum $2500 and I know there will be sensors and such required to adapt properly. I loved the Haltech on my FRS. It would be so awesome to have it, but do I NEED the Haltech? DBW tuning is so awesome. Is it that much more awesome? Lots to think about.

I'm trying to not let the budget tank any chance of this project hitting the road and it seems like OPTION 2 is kinda the middle ground between being cheap and ideal. Any thoughts?

i am a bit surprised there isnt an Option 1.5 where you can delete the immobilizer and other uneeded functions in the ECU. Is there something like HP Tuners for hondas? Hondata maybe?

In reply to metty :

I would love for that to be an option but it appears there aren't any solutions offered for that. At least none that I could find. Everyone either goes to Hondata with cable throttle or full stand alone ECU.

I am also considering the FuelTech ft450 or ft550 now. I like the idea that it has the screen integrated into it which would then save me money on gauges. The jump from 450 to 550 is steep so I'm hoping the 450 would work for a basic NA setup without major sacrifice. Only downside I can think of is still using cable throttle with the 450 but it's about $700 less.

This is a great idea for a swap! I think going transverse is the right move. Those are very small cars with very small engine bays. The money you save on the transmission can help you justify the Hondata. Have you been following the Stanceworks K24 Ferrari 308? Lots of potential with this platform.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Im afraid packaging will be difficult but I haven't measured or put much effort into that thought. Mainly fitting the rear trunk assembly I see as a major hurdle. The k24 is TALL and the trunk on a 914 is pretty low. To keep axle alignment decent it places things further back which isn't ideal. I would LOVE to put a DSG gearbox from a VAG but afraid it would make things more complex than my ambition can handle.

Pic of a known current build with transverse:

Definitely familiar with the Stanceworks build. It's certainly inspiring for a project like this.

Hmm true, seems you're cutting stuff up one way or another. Looking forward to watching how you tackle this!

In reply to maschinenbau :

I'd like to see more perspective on the packaging problems faced above. I haven't done much digging on what Honda transmission would be best suited for my application.

Currently I have a deal setup with a fellow GRMer AAZCD-Jon, allowing me the opportunity to get a 5 speed Boxster transaxle, the axles, and shifter. The major caveat is that I do the removal myself. Totally grateful for that opportunity to save some money and get the transaxle I want. Hopefully more details on that will emerge after this weekend, but from what I understand the Boxster axle stubs should bolt onto my 911 rear hubs. I will just need to have the inner shafts shortened to length which there's a few places willing to do this for about $100 per axle.

It's been a busy week but not for the 914. Wednesday night I picked up a cheap used HF creeper for $20. I'm now able to roll around under the chassis with ease. Last night I managed to carve out a few minutes to pull the gas tank and see what lays beneath. Happy to report no rust but a couple more small crinkles visible from the previous front end shunt. One brace on the passenger side needs hammered back down and spot welded but I think everything else looks to be in great shape.

Before suctioning out the years of build up.

And after a quickie shop vac session.

The brace sheet metal that needs hammered down and spot welded.

I'd like to get a power wash session on most of the car after getting the HVAC stuff out as well as all of the wiring. Also need to track down some local dry ice to remove the floor deadening material. Once that's all done the plan is to wire wheel the dickens out of the trunks, floors, under belly, and get started on the sheet metal work.

AAZCD-Jon dropped off the Boxster 5 speed donor early Saturday morning. He helped me remove the top, we chatted for a bit, and then he had to hit the road.

I wasn't planning to do anything with it that day but that evening I got restless and started getting it up in the air. I only had a half hour or so to tinker so the full pull happened Sunday morning.

The clutch disc smelled super burnt. The flywheel looked pretty gnarly. Still lots of material left on the disc but I can't imagine it's worth running again. Maybe it will be good enough for mockup if funds are tight?

Anyway it all came out super easy. Shifter cable removal took a little effort to pull out but not bad at all.

So we have a 5 speed transaxle, shifter assembly, shifter cables, axles, charred clutch disc, pressure plate, and slave cylinder.

I had read that the Boxster stub axle will fit the early 911 and 914-6 rear hubs. I hadn't been able to confirm that's what I have on the car until now. I popped both 914 stubs out and sure enough the Boxster ones bolt in! So essentially I'll have a couple of axle options to explore. I can have the shafts shortened on the Boxster axles OR I can build a pair that will bolt to the 914-6 stubs and inner flange. Jon mentioned he thought the transmission might be a 987 since the flange bolts are 10mm. After deciphering the code we think it's from 2.7L 987. Still not certain why it has the larger flange bolts that normally come with the S but for now it works and that's fine with me.

I know it doesn't look like it is the same in the pics but the axle bolts up perfectly!

While twiddling my thumbs I figured I'd give the gearbox a good power wash and it cleaned up really nicely. I forgot to take a pic before I got started.

I think I spent longer spraying it down than it took to remove it. Anyway I slid it under the 914 to see if the axle length would work and it was obvious both will need shortened. Also I am going to see if I can utilize the stock Boxster trans mounts. Either welding/moving the existing 914 ones or a bracket that links both? This week I'd like to get the HVAC and wiring out if possible.

Getting a creeper is a game changer honestly. For the disc, there may be a way to salvage it so you can still use it besides for a mockup. Maybe post something in the tech forum or the garage talk forum and see what others suggest. 

Hell ya.  Major score!  Looks like those Boxster mounts can be modded to work without too much hassle. 

In reply to Paris Van Gorder :

I'm still considering it since it looks to be "okay" by the eye but it stinks pretty bad and there's a bit of a center heat stripe where it clearly was slipping. You can see the discoloration in the flywheel. My biggest worry is getting an expensive flywheel since it's an adapter kit from Kennedy, bolting on a fried disc, and then damaging the expensive flywheel.

In reply to Lof8 - Andy :

Yeah it looks to be fairly close to the stock 914 mounts but without having the k24 bolted to it I wasn't sure how far back or forward the axles will be in relation to the hubs. I do think they can work in some capacity just not sure how yet.

Just got a sweet coupon for this sheet metal stripper from Harbour Freight. Today only for $75. This should help with stripping the floor pans and all sorts of goodies.

Spent some more time test fitting the transaxle and measuring axles. There's a possibility the Tiptronic axles are short enough to work or pretty damn close.

Pretty sure I've scored a second hand adapter kit for the k24 to Boxster 5 speed. Fingers crossed it all works out.

Dry ice located for floor clean up this weekend or when time allows. The internet says it will only last 24 hours in a cooler so I need to make sure I have room in the freezer to make it last longer.

Also took a few minutes to track down the MIG conversion kit for my welder. Looks like I already installed the regulator, just needed to change polarity, the spool, spool wheel, and tips. Now I need to find a bottle that isn't a million dollars to get filled.

What is the track width difference between the stock stuff and the new boxter rear? I might lean towards using the boxter stuff off the shelf and doing wider suspension vs custom axles but I like wear parts/consumables to be available at parts stores.

Sean

In reply to smokeysevin :

Unfortunately this chassis didn't come with axles, just the stubs that are either 914-6 or early 911 fitment. I do have a 914 parts car on the way that will be swapped out with the Boxster donor this afternoon. It happens to have some axles on it that could possibly be a better solution to utilize the 914-6 stubs. Any off the shelf solution would be ideal. I'll report back any findings.

AAZCD-Jon arrived yesterday afternoon to retrieve the Boxster and drop off a 914 parts car. He has some items that he would like to keep off of it, mostly outer body work, but there are lots of little things I could use. The front control arms and crossmember are probably in better shape than mine. I can also use his for checking front alignment since mine is out of wack. I'm hoping just trying to bolt his suspension items to mine will help with some of that misalignment. If not there's front trunk sheet metal with suspension pickup points that can be moved to mine. Trunk latch and maybe even trunk patch sheet metal could possibly be up for grabs. Front bumper area sheet metal is in great condition. Lots to use from it.

Image uploader isn't working for me, nor was it yesterday. I'll try again later.

Apparently coverting to PNG is a temp fix for uploading pics.

Since the POA doesn't take too kindly to car projects or non registered vehicles I bought a cheap $25 car cover from Amazon.

Last night I didn't do any real work on the 914 but I did start some much needed organization. The current position of the car is so tight against my storage shelves and work bench it's hard to get anything done. The side my wife parks on has more space available so I switched sides with her. If I need to get to my work bench, the attic ladder, storage shelves, etc. I can just back her car out of the garage. Tons of space now. Hoping to take advantage of that space this weekend. By rolling the parts car in her place and measuring a bunch. Maybe even stealing the whole front suspension off of it for test fitting.