AP2 S2000 - A love letter and long-overdue build thread

This is long overdue. I've created build threads for some of my other cars, but ironically, not for the car I've actually kept the longest. Given that I'm finally ready to start building the car, it's time I change that. 

Years ago, after having a few street cars that served dual duty, I was looking for a dedicated track car. I drove everything under the sun on the plethora of canyon roads close to my old house on the west side of Denver. I drove all manner of high powered cars, lightweight cars, of all drivetrains and variable price ranges... at the end of the day, it came down to either a 987 Boxster/Cayman S or an AP2 S2000- nothing else put quite the same smile on my face. 

My first S2000 was a 2007 AP2 with a sweet red leather interior. It spent some time on track and proved to be very reliable under stress. Unfortunately, a large, unexpected financial burden hit me like a ton of bricks and it made sense to sell the car. 

A few years went by and I picked up a couple of cheap NA Miata's (when they were still cheap!) to give me something to play with- they held me over, but I longed to have another S2K in my garage. 

So, when things got better, almost 5 years ago, in October 2019, I bought my 2nd AP2, my laguna blue 2008 Honda S2000: 

^^^This time around, I managed to find my first color choice. No accidents. 10/10 matching VIN's. Immaculate shape. OEM front and rear lip spoilers. It was a drive-by-wire (2006-2009 only) car- translation: able to be Hondata flash tuned. This was exactly the droid I was looking for. 

Subscribed.

Original owner of a 2006 Silverstone.

Fast forward to 2021. At this point, I would intermittently run an autoX event every now and again, but I decided I wanted to try competing for an entire season, just to see how I would do. I didn't want to get into any sort of crazy build, so I elected to run SCCA C-Street. Keep in mind, while the S2000 is a fun autoX car, the Car to Have in CS is the ND2 Miata. 

Our local CS class is pretty competitive, so I knew that if I wanted to hope to keep up with the ND2's, I was going to need to mod the car within the rules. 

First stop, a giant, spined Karcepts front sway bar: 



Next, I was going to need some wide, sticky rubber... so I managed to talk my local tire shop into shoehorning a set of 245 wide RE71R tires onto my OEM front wheels (255's in the back): 



In order to get her to grip when turning, I knew I needed to dial in as much negative camber as the OEM eccentric bolts could give me: 




Now that the CS legal mods were underway, I needed to make sure she stayed reliable for the whole season...

So, it was time to pull the valve cover and make sure the valves were in spec: 




^^^While time consuming, this actually isn't a tough job. I've actually adjusted the valves on several of my Honda's over the years to great effect. IIRC, I think only a couple of them were barely out of spec, but I adjusted them all to their mid-range levels. 

I also replaced all the fluids in the car, put in a brand new set of OEM NGK spark plugs (gapped correctly), slapped on a new set of brake pads (Hawk HPS due to only running autoX) and bled the radiator, which, on these cars, takes forever: 




Afterwards, it was time to get out there and start having a good time! 

At that time, I caught The Bug and wanted to try and do more to help me shave off all the time I could manage. I ended up picking up a set of OEM sized (17x7 front, 17x8.5 rear) OZ Alleggerita HLT wheels that were within CS offset rules (they were 6mm off from stock, the class limit is 7mm). More importantly, they shaved a total of 20 lbs off of the corners of the car and looked good doing it!

I managed to commit to running the full season (first time in the SCCA), and as it turns out, without even touching the stock shocks or running a lighter exhaust (both are legal in CS), I did pretty well overall: 




I took Fastest Novice for the season and managed to take 2nd in CS for the season, losing the top spot to a friend of mine in an ND2 that has actually trophied at Nationals in the past, ironically, in an S2000. I didn't feel too bad. Little did my friend know- I had been "cheating" the whole season by trying to steal all of his driving knowledge to catch up to him! 

The season champ and I co-drove at an off-season test and tune event, in the same car, going back and forth, each getting at least a dozen runs in... our closest times were within hundreths of a second of each other. 

As much as I loved the S2000, it then became clear, if I wanted to win CS, I was probably going to need an ND2 Miata. 

I did all the test driving, going back and forth... but in the end, no matter what I do, I just can't find it in my heart to abandon my beloved AP2 S2000, not even for an ND2. 

For a while, I considered trying to eek the last couple mods out of the S2K while still staying in CS. 

When it went on sale, I picked up a Ballade Sports Type S dual exhaust, which likely did very little for power (even if it is bigger than stock- 70mm vs 60mm), but it did shave 11.8 lbs off of the car! 

I'll refrain from commenting too much about Ballade Sports the company, only to say, well, I wouldn't order anything else from them unless I had to. 

The first time I took the car out for a drive, the left/driver's side muffler literally fell off, scuffing it up pretty good. Honestly, it didn't sound bad, there was no drone at all! It was barely louder than stock with a good tone... but the combination of the piss poor fitment (I couldn't get that thing centered to save my life) and odd circle shaped holes in my oval bumper drove me to the point where I ended up taking it off and selling it. 

I spent some time talking to Brian from Karcepts (who has trophied at Nationals in both an S2000 and ND Miata) about spending all the money on a set of MCS shocks, to try and eek out the last few tenths, if possible... Brian was honest with me, essentially confirming that the ND2 is the faster car in CS, saying that if the S2000 was running perfectly and the ND2 driver makes a mistake or 2, it would be competitive- which is exactly what I experienced throughout the season. He also informed me that there were some fast competitors in CS S2000's at Nationals running his MCS setup. 

I waited patiently for National results... the fastest S2000 at Nats (running $3000 MCS shocks) was outside of trophies, in 14th place... the 13 cars ahead of him? You guessed it, they were all ND2's. The following 2 years (2022 and 2023), no one even showed up to CS Nats in an S2000- literally, not one person- every car in the field was an ND, and for good reason. 

I realized trying to win in an S2000, against a competent driver in an ND2 was a truly uphill battle. Unfortunately, my local competition was a very talented driver, in a fully prepped ND2 running, running MCS shocks and the largest bar on earth. 

Knowing this was a battle I would likely never win, but unwilling to sell my S2000, I decided to branch out, getting another car. I scoured all the Internets using Autotemptest- they literally search all local CL and FB ads in the country for you... I spent many hours looking for a car that could actually compete at the highest level of an autoX class without breaking the bank... at last, I found a 1999 Mazda Miata Sport out in Tampa, FL! 

To anyone that doesn't know, the 1999 Miata Sport is a rare car- no options (lightest weight possible), manual only, Torsen diff, highest spring rates on an NB, OEM strut tower bracing, etc. These cars are a nightmare to find- it seems like most of them are gobbled up by people running SCCA ES! 

I did a fly and drive to get this thing and boy was it poorly maintained! The flat spots on the tires almost shook the car apart getting back to Colorado! No A/C, no cruise control. This was easily the longest drive of my life, but I got her home: 




Unfortunately, when prepping the NB Sport for ES, a substantial incident happened (it's a long story), that completely threw off the geometry of the front suspension... it wasn't something that I had the skills to fix to say the least- my attempts only made the problem worse. I was beyond bummed. I ended up selling the NB Sport and couldn't find another one to replace it... so I started looking for another "car to have" for a different class, in the off-season. 

Fortune smiled upon me right after selling the NB and I found a near stock 1988 Honda CRX Si! 



^^^For the record, that photo was taken after I modded the car. 

I then hit the wrenches pretty heavy in the off-season, building the car to run SCCA STS and Tuner 5. 

I need to explain some things: the CRX was my first FWD build. I listened to WAY too many people on the Internet. I got done with prep work (I ripped that car apart and replaced everything I legally could!) just in time to start testing the car for the summer season... I've never spun a car so many times in my life! In past seasons, I don't think I've ever spun my S2000's or Miata's (minus one incident at HPR that we won't talk about lol). The FWD, short wheelbase with heavy rear spring rates and a huge rear bar game was entirely new to me! I also learned a valuable lesson: NEVER run poly trailing arm bushings in a wishbone FWD Honda! 

Everything I knew from running RWD cars seemed completely backwards... with a car like this (short wheelbase, FWD, heavy rear rates) if you lift, you spin. Made exponentially worse by poly RTA bushings. 

The first test and tune event? On the runs I wasn't spinning, it was fast... by end the of the event, on the last run the car made, it blew a rack and pinion... that was another long drive home... next event? The sway bar disconnected itself- long story, I figured it out, but the event was shot by that time... I started running more SCCA TT, managed to set a couple of course class records (admittedly they weren't terribly competitive), but something new broke at just about every event, lol. 

People say the S2000 is sketchy at the limit... those people have never driven a CRX that was setup to rotate! Easily the most terrifying car I've ever driven! And man was it tough to get heat into the rear tires. It was a fun experiment, but I also discovered that I prefer everything about RWD lol. 

Either way, with other car(s) designated for track duty, the S2000 went back to being a street-only car. Translation? I removed the giant splined Karcepts front sway bar, sold the bar and put a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports back on. 

Without the big front sway bar, with the camber essentially even on both ends, the S2000 REALLY wanted to rotate! It was a good time on the right road, but unnerving for canyon carving. 

I decided to run an OEM S2000 CR front sway bar, which is a bit thicker than my OEM 2008 sway bar (26.5mm diameter vs 25.4mm). Of course it installed just like stock, but unfortunately I forgot to take pictures of it. 

I also decided to change my rear spring rates just a bit. The OEM 2008 S2000 spring rates are 280 lbs-in front / 294 lbs-in rear. I swapped out the rears for a set from a wrecked low mileage 2007 S2000- 269 lbs-in: 




^^^I was trying to take away the car's more rearward spring bias, to get it to feel less tail-happy and more neutral on canyon roads. It did help a bit, but it wasn't drastic. Of course my stock parts at still in my "purity box". 

Since the S2000 was now just a street car, I decided to invest in some street car mods. 

Oh my word, this should have been one of the first things I did to the car! I picked up a Modifry cup holder! This thing bolts in with stock bolts in just a couple minutes! 





The S2000's OEM cup holder (those square things in the middle) in essentially worthless for holding cups, and if they do hold something, it's right in the way of your shifter... this cup holder is amazing! Worth every penny! And it even folds up so it doesn't hit your passenger's leg! 

I had also previously installed a Bluetooth adapter to the OEM stereo. 100% worth it- easy to install and turns on/connects as soon as you turn the car on. 

I then started essentially inventing problems in my head... after running a deep dished steering wheel on my CRX, I decided I wanted the steering wheel to be a bit closer to me in the S2000. Sigh. This is how we learn. 

I order an Xtndr 55mm (2.2") steering wheel spacer from 949 Racing... I'm an idiot. When I went to remove the stock steering wheel, it wouldn't come loose to save my life... I gave it a tug too hard and the clock spring came crashing out...



Try as I might, I couldn't get the damn thing back like it was supposed to me... for the record, OEM clock springs are not cheap and when you install a new one like I did, guess what? I had to buy an OEM Honda diagnostic tool to recalibrate the new clock spring. It's funny how a simple, cheap mod is only one error away from turning into a small fortune! 

I learned some things. Got everything put back together and working perfectly (after reading through a very long S2000 procedure manual) and got the damned spacer installed: 




^^^Here's the kicker: after driving around with the new steering wheel spacer for a couple weeks, I decided I didn't like it lol. It pushed my arm back into an odd angle, making it hard to steer quickly... I ended up removing it, lol. That was an expensive lesson! 

After a whole year of driving back and forth across the state to run autoX events, my poor car picked up a plethora of rock chips on the hood and front fenders. I had used OEM touch up paint in the past, but honestly, they only succeeded in making the car look worse. 

Then I discovered the wonderful world of Dr. ColorChip: 




I really wished I would have taken before photos, but my word, this stuff works! After I was done, I was stunned by the transformation! The hood looked damn near brand new again! 




^^^That thing likely had 30-50 bright white rock chips before and now you can hardly tell! 

Here lately, I wanted to make sure I stayed on top of all preventative maintenance for the S2000 and decided I would swap out my OEM timing chain tensioner. The timing chain has always been quiet, never made a sound and I wanted to keep it that way. 

I didn't want to use another stock TCT per se. All the folks over on S2ki recommend Billman's TCT, which is basically a modified stocker that addresses the weaknesses of the stock design. It's not cheap, but it's pretty cool: 

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/new-york-metro-new-york-s2000-owners-61/billman-motion-s2000-repair-thread-iv-537578/

This is a 5-10 minute job- very easy, hard to mess up. I swapped it out with ease in minutes and everything worked as designed! 

My old unit: 



The Billman Generation X unit installed- you can see the BX etched into it: 




Nothing was wrong with the old one, I just did this for peace of mind. 

While the previous mods tamed some of the oversteer, I was still looking for a bit more confidence for the times I run canyon roads. I broke down and actually had the car aligned back to OEM settings: 




^^^The result? Probably not as fast for the autoX game, but she's now super confidence inspiring! When the car loses grip now, it does so in a slightly more progressive, 4-wheel drift that's very satisfying! For a street car, that's exactly what I'm looking for. 


On a recent trip out west, pitching the car around, having a blast, we stopped to grab lunch and came out to this: 




^^^I couldn't help but laugh! The car might be "big" when compared to a Miata, but compared to everything else out there, she's still a tiny roadster! 


At this point, I think this thread is pretty much caught up to the present. Future posts will likely involve some very big plans I've wanted to do for some time now... 

Thanks for sharing this, combined with the 'When your track car turns into your daily" it was a very interesting story.

Care to share some of the big plans?

In reply to Piguin :

I've mentioned it before and have been talking about it for years: I plan on finally picking up a Science of Speed supercharger, to give her the power bump she deserves. And even though the OEM shocks on the car are still in decent shape, they've got some years on them and I've also wanted to try out a set of Ohlins for quite a while now. 
 

When I made this thread, I had just put my 128i up for sale... I've since decided to keep the 128i... so I'm on the fence about which car should get the next lump of mod money. If I would have sold the BMW, a supercharger would have already been in the mail lol. As it stands now, I still plan on boosting the S2000, but there might be a longer waiting period before I get around to it. 
 

Beyond that, future mods would be solely determined based on what I felt the car needed to feel "balanced" while maintaining reliability. 

In order to help complete "the story", I suppose I should fill in some other blanks. I eventually sold the CRX. I decided I wanted to get away from the SCCA, mostly as I was tired of being at the mercy of needing "the car to have", which could literally change any season. I branched out to some local autoX and TT leagues that are governed by power-to-weight ratios and other factors vs needing a specific car to be competitive. 

When I sold my CRX, I found I had discovered a bit of a taste for the double wishbone FWD Honda life, which resulted in me stumbling across a very well maintained DC2 Integra GS-R that then served autoX/track duties: 



I actually made a build thread about it here on GRM: 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-teg-a-dc2-road-to-all-the-hondas-story/258401/page1/

The Integra then ran a few autoX/track events (after sinking a boatload of time, money and effort into it). It was a fun, competent car, although I felt myself wanting to go back to a RWD platform and stumbled across my lowly 128i for a price I couldn't refuse: 

^^^My wife's Challenger 392 Scat Pack photo-bombed into this picture. 

Which of course led to the ongoing other thread: 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/e82-128i-when-your-projected-track-car-turns-into-your-daily/258441/page1/

So, as it stands, the S2000 is still serving as a fun, street car. 

There's a pattern though: no matter what is next to it, no matter what project I take on that year, the S2000 never leaves the garage. 

I considered selling it a while ago. Not because I don't love the car, but because I was babying it so much that I was hardly driving it. I even made a thread where I compared it to all manner of cars as potential replacements: 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/selling-my-ap2-s2000-to-buy-a-gr-corolla-have-i-lost-my-mind/259221/page1/

^^^That thread led to me eventually starting a thread where I just started reviewing cars in my spare time: 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/random-car-reviews-tales-from-a-nut-with-too-much-time-on-his-hands/262322/page1/


^^^Spoiler alert: I drove a ton of cars... had a lot of fun... but at the end of the day, I couldn't find anything that put a bigger smile on my face than my lowly AP2 S2000 (although a few of them came pretty close). I love this damn car. 

In the meantime, these literally just showed up at my door: 



Not counting autoX, for years I've been running a set of Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my S2000... they've been great, but unfortunately, they're now down 2/32nds of thread, so it's time to replace them- the fronts technically have a bit more life left in them, but they're 8 years old, so I figured I might as well replace all 4. I enjoyed them so much that I decided to replace them with another set of Michelin's, this time the Pilot Sport 4S! 

I think you would love the supercharger. Especially since you are in Colorado. I don't think I have driven the SOS SC, but I've driven a few different ones.

I have one of the original Kraftwerks superchargers, back from when the Jacksons were in charge and I love it. It did not change the character of the car, but it pretty much double the hp. 

In reply to Slippery :

How many miles/years have you been running the Kraftwerks SC? Any reliability issues? 
 

I'm mostly leaning towards the SOS SC due to their reputation for reliability and the fact that their kit seems pretty comprehensive/well engineered. 

The thing to remember about superchargers up here is they make a lot less boost.  If the kit makes 9 psi at sea level, you'll make more like 6.5 psi here vs a turbo, which will make the same psi regardless of altitude

Rode in an AP1 many years ago. Had a sticker on the back window - "REVS 2 9K". Top down, feeling VTEC kick in (yo) was magical at ~17. Haven't had a chance to drive one since but man. Reading over this thread, now I want one! 

What gravitated you towards an AP2 over an AP1? 

docwyte said:

The thing to remember about superchargers up here is they make a lot less boost.  If the kit makes 9 psi at sea level, you'll make more like 6.5 psi here vs a turbo, which will make the same psi regardless of altitude

Yep, I was planning on consulting the folks over at SOS before ordering their kit to see what pulley size they recommended running at our elevation. 

As far as turbo cars making the same boost at our elevation, that's both accurate and inaccurate. Many years ago, as a much younger man, I used to tune a variety of boosted cars- I've played with DSM's, spent lots of time with turbo EJ Subaru's, the Mazdaspeed 2.3T cars and early N54 powered BMW's. I have a couple old threads of mine that are even stickied on a couple of larger forums going over the basics of ECU/DME tuning (specifically regarding tuning timing tables). I've spent countless hours looking over logs as a younger man when I was more into that scene. 

As far as turbo cars making the same boost up here, well, kind of, but it depends. As we all know, atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7psi. Up here, our thinner air density puts us closer to ~12psi. Can a turbo car hit the same boost pressures at our elevation? Absolutely, but in order to do so, you're going to have to spin the turbo at a higher RPM, resulting in higher IAT's, forcing you to run less timing advance, resulting in lower power than you would see at sea level. A turbo's compressor housing is essentially identical to centrifugal supercharger's compressor. They can both run the "same" boost at our elevation, you just have to spin them to a higher RPM, creating more heat in the process. The difference is that adjusting the boost pressure on a turbo can be done easier with the use of some type of boost control solenoid (which just bleeds pressure away from a wastegate to increase the pressure before the wastegate opens), whereas on a SC, you need to change the size of the pulley. 

Having reviewed quite a few logs back in the day and compared them to folks at sea level, I would disagree that at least most of the older school turbo cars run the same boost pressures up here. I found it fascinating that most of the boosted Japanese cars ran 1-2psi lower peak pressure up here, whereas the N54 ran several PSI higher at our elevation- I remember seeing sea level N54 logs showing them running 7-8psi peak at sea level and my own car (N54 335i- before tuned) hitting 10-12psi peak at our elevation. That was due to BMW's DME having targeted torque values it was looking for, which used additional boost pressure to compensate for our power losses at elevation. It should probably be noted that since the N54 was running what I would consider fairly low factory boost pressures, those turbos had quite a bit of overhead to up the ante without turning into total hair dryers. Many of the cars pushing 20+psi in stock form don't have nearly as much boost overhead before raising IAT's dramatically. 

At the end of the day, if a car is pushing let's say 15psi, that only means it's pushing an additional 15psi worth of pressure over what is atmospheric (which at sea level, would be a total of ~29.7psi, up here, closer to ~27psi total pressure). The compressor still has to suck in atmospheric air and compress it, which at our elevation, I've found takes a bit longer- you can see in logs and even on dyno charts, cars up here typically take just a bit longer to spool and because of running further out of their efficiency range, they frequently have a bit tougher of a time maintaining power up top. 

But make no mistake about it, the compression process is the same for both turbo's and centrifugal superchargers- it just seems like the turbo "makes the same boost" at our elevation because of smart ECU's re-calibrating the WGDC's of a boost control solenoid; whereas a SC has to rely on a mechanical solution (i.e. a pulley). 

EchoTreeSix said:

Rode in an AP1 many years ago. Had a sticker on the back window - "REVS 2 9K". Top down, feeling VTEC kick in (yo) was magical at ~17. Haven't had a chance to drive one since but man. Reading over this thread, now I want one! 

What gravitated you towards an AP2 over an AP1? 

 

Before I bought my first S2000 (many years ago), I drove everything under the sun within the budget I had set for myself, including both the AP1 and AP2. In short, I had more fun in the AP2. 

To be fair, I used to live on the west side of town, close to the mountains- many of the test drives I took were down Deer Creek Canyon. The AP2's I drove were considerably more confidence inspiring on tight canyon roads, allowing me to push them a bit harder, increasing the fun factor. 

I also preferred the powerband of the AP2 by a large margin. It doesn't sound like much, but the bigger 2.2L engine in the AP2 felt less gutless driving around town. It also helps that despite having a lower redline, the AP2 also has slightly shorter gearing (technically due to the shorter secondary reduction gear), so you end up with a motor that makes more torque, combined with a bit more torque multiplication. I like shifting and this car's 2nd gear tops out at 57-58mph! By comparison, the AP1 wraps out to about 67-68mph in 2nd gear, making the gears feel much taller than they actually are. The S2000 has the best manual shifter I've ever driven, in any car, at any price and in the AP2, I feel like I get (have to?) use it more often, making for a more rewarding driving experience. On top of that, the added torque and torque multiplication are nice for put-putting around town. 

If I bought an AP1, the first thing I would do is a shorter final drive, to mimic the gearing that the AP2's come with stock. 

There's also the fact that the rear end suspension geometry was altered pretty drastically in the AP2, making them a good bit more forgiving in the corners. These cars actually toe-out in the rear under compression, which helps them rotate, but on the AP1, they were a good bit more eager to rotate (err, spin), making them less confidence inspiring to pitch around on a back road. 

On top of that, I also specifically wanted a drive-by-wire car (2006-2009) due to the fact that they have flashable ECU's from the factory. No piggybacks or standalone ECU's needed- Hondata software can flash your stock ECU to run like a factory car! In the event I ever supercharged the car (that was the eventual plan from the beginning), I still wanted the ability to pass emissions locally, retain full OBD2 diagnostics, etc. 

I also prefer the looks of the AP2 over the AP1. So, I mostly bought and AP2 over the AP1 because I preferred the powerband, the gearing, the suspension, the looks and the tunability (specifically of the DBW 2006-2009 cars). It should be noted that the 2006+ cars also have traction/stability control and the 2008-2009 cars have TPMS (even if I wish they didn't!). 

Some people love the AP1, others love the 2004-2005 AP2's that still have a cable throttle (I did have a ton of fun in the last AP2v1 I drove)... but at the end of the day, the AP2v2 seemed like the best choice for me- unfortunately, they're typically the most expensive as well. 

If you're interested, I would try to find and drive both to see which camp you're in. 

In reply to roninsoldier83 :

Yes, which is why upgrading intercoolers up here is so important.  The turbo cars definitely need to have the head room to run more boost, as you point out.  That's one of the reasons my 996 made so much more power on the larger factory turbo's, they just had the capacity to keep up with what I asked them to do up here.

Interestingly, on my old B5 S4 avant I ran One Lap with, when I drove it from here to South Bend, it made SO much more power at sea level.  I was really shocked, it had upgraded turbo's too, but the K04's are still pretty small.  I was expecting to feel a small difference at sea level, but it was a really dramatic difference...