Asphalt_Gundam - G body that turns

In reply to asphalt_gundam :

Thanks for the explanation, I'd been like oking at an LS/6 Speed for mine but they are big money. I shouldn't need 6 gears and the lower price is tempting.  This is definitely something to look into.  
 

Have you thought of converting the rear suspension to a three link or torque arm? I worked on several G body based stockcars and three links really helped cure the bind related issues they have.  

In reply to asphalt_gundam :

Your car is actually a car goal for a car lover

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

I just added a few pics I could find from when I did the swap.

Actually I've been formulating a plan for the rear suspension over the last week. Even with off corner traction being night and day compared to last year there is still a lot more to be had. I haven't noticed bind (though there very well could be) going on, every pivot point has been using a a spherical bearing. The real struggle is to have good geometry in the rear. These cars pretty good stock but once you drop the ride height over 3" it goes bad real fast. I have gained much of it back or even better with relocating the lower control arm mount on the axle. I'm now maxed out on my brackets at a 3.75" drop from the stock hole. Which means I need to do something to get the upper control arm level or up hill to the front of the car. Right now its downhill at around 10 degrees. That geometry tries to lift the axle off the ground when accelerating and is why I have such an aggressive angle on the lower control arm to counter act it.

[2021 EDIT: My thought process was wrong here to a degree. The lower arm angle pushes up on the chassis and therefore plants the rear tire from the forward push of the axle/tire AND rotational forces of the housing. What is happening with the upper arm being angled down towards the front of the car is a push down on the chassis and lift of the rear end from forward push ONLY. However the rotational forces of the housing pull the control arm instead of push (when on throttle) which is trying to lift the chassis and plant the tire.....these opposite forces are not equal and the rotational force seems to be the greater. If the rear was mounted in bird cages (which let the axle freely rotate within) then the only forces applied are the push of the axle propelling the car forward. Cars with bird cages use a 5th link to control axle rotation and is the only link which the rotational forces act upon.]

3 link or torque arm: Torque arm is completely out because of the "stock chassis suspension mount locations" rule for Street Mod. GridLife has been opening up some rules that pertain to solid/live axle cars but that so far has only been for GLTC. 3 Link on the other hand I could with a little work fab up a "bolt on bracket" for the frame and a Y shape arm for the upper, then add a watts link. Or bracket on both frame and rear with a strait control arm...several options really. I like the 3 link option for its tunability potential, however it may be pushing the rules of the class too much as it is a major suspension design change...which is specifically ban.

What I may start with is some offset brackets to raise the pivot point at the frame. I've seen a kit for just this from a drag race shop that seems to work. It's more money and requires using their control arms because the brackets move the mount locating out (making the arms shorter). I think I can fab up something to use my current control arms and get a larger adjustment window. Keeping the longer arm also makes for smaller changes between holes for finer tuning adjustments.

browny333 said:

In reply to asphalt_gundam :

Your car is actually a car goal for a car lover

Thank you! That might be the biggest compliment my car(s) or I have ever gotten.

I also have to laugh a little since right this second the car is up in the air, welder close by, transmission ripped apart on the bench, battery out and wire/cable laying all over. LOL, I guess for me the goal is just to always have a project and be making forward progress. I guess right now that goal is to have my best outing yet at Road America. Still have to finish the battery relocation, fuel tank changes/upgrades. Along with I would like to change up the rear suspension, change up the seat, add a 5pt harness, make some aero pieces for the front and also have fender vents to add....2 weeks is enough time right???

Is Gridlife / RA allowing spectators then?

In reply to GPz11 (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, spectator passes are for sale for the event. 

Purchase through See Tickets. Easiest way is Grid.Life then select events, click on Road America and click the Register button for the redirect

Do you know of a schedule for the daily events?

Trying to figure out if one day is better than the other.

In reply to GPz11 (Forum Supporter) :

No schedule out yet..Its usually the week out they put it out. Regular schedule lay out is cars on track at 8-9am. Saturday will start with a beginner session followed by Intermediate (me) and Advanced HPDE. Then roll into the Time Attack for a 1-2hr block, some more HPDE followed by lunch. After lunch will likely be Time Attack again, Some multiple session HPDE in late afternoon and possibly more TA to end the day. Sunday will be HPDE to open up, followed by TA till lunch time most likely. Might be one more TA in the afternoon then HPDE the rest of the day. 

Saturday will have the most action going on. Sunday afternoon turns into more of hangout track day towards the end.

Cool, thanks.

I've got Mid-Ohio the weekend after RA otherwise I'd consider joining ya out there.

Lots of upgrades leading up to and over the long weekend.

For starters the new syncos came in for 3rd and 4th. The friction material was all that was wore out. Everything else looked great but these new ones make a huge difference. Engagement is so fast and smooth now!

Got the new clutch cable in and wrapped with heat sheilding this time around. I didn't have any problems despite the cable being very close to the header until going to Colorado where that thin air plagued me with all kinds of heat management problems that had to be sorted out. Cable failed while street cruising not on track at speed...

Up next was taking care of (hopefully) any fuel supply problems in the future. Reinstalled the foam, fabricated a baffle to keep the foam off the fuel level float, and Holley Hydramat. 

Out came the grinder and cutoff wheels to add fender vents and one additional hood vent. All of which should increase cooling and reduce front end lift (make downforce).

Since Road America is the track that put safety at the top of my list last year I made sure to add some for in time for this year. 5 point harness installed and even made sure to put the belt retainers? On the roll cage so they can't be off center and loosen up on track by sliding to shortest distance.

And what I'm hopeful will be a big upgrade in the grip and handling department: Viking double adjustable crusader shocks.

I wanted to get some more aero done but am just out of time. Was going to do some panels under the front end to further reduce lift but after making one and playing with fitment mounting options without major work I decided not to. Mostly because as soon as I make a splitter or even just a flat tray I'll need completely different brackets, mounts, etc. I want to change a lot on the front end this winter anyway so it would all be changing again. 

Looking forward to seeing what this last 10 months of work has accomplished in lap time around RA. It's safe to say it's nowhere near the same car...

Hey, where did you find the tie down points on the shock? Thanks and I’ll be up at RA on Sunday.

GPz11 (Forum Supporter) said:

Hey, where did you find the tie down points on the shock? Thanks and I’ll be up at RA on Sunday.

I just made a quick drawing of them and had work burn a set out for me. Welded some to the front lower control arms too. Completely eliminated any loosening of straps while on the trailer. Beats the hell out of a point that moves with suspension or the wheels.

Not the post Road America update I wanted to be making...

Saturday was mostly wet so I was taking people for rides since a fast lap just wasn't going to be a thing. The new Viking shocks completely transformed this car, again. During the two semi dry sessions on Saturday I had more off corner traction than I thought possible without more significant rear geometry changes. It felt like a slingshot getting fired on corner exit. Car was fast, and the corners had a level of composure I've not experienced yet. Didn't think I would be able to find the limit over the weekend it had moved up so much. Sunday the tracked dried out and first session I was way too cautious on the brakes zones and not pushing to my best in the corners. This was the first session I bothered to time and it ran the same as last year but at a Sunday drive pace compared to tire destroying like last year. Went downhill fast after that as the following two sessions I went slower and slower despite getting better and better on the brake zones and corners...data says I'm down 5+ mph on the big end of straits and 10+ in the short runs between turns. Engine is hurt for the second year in a row at Road America. Pretty sure I've lost a cylinder on the passenger side since it's pretty difficult to tell that it's running any different and AFR is good. Starting got more difficult and temps came up a few degrees and of course the obvious lack of power. I lost 18 seconds from morning to afternoon, I just think back to building engines and having one of the rockers that didn't get set right and it lost 80hp because one cylinder was dead (on a 400hp engine). That's what this feels like. I don't think it's a rocker since there's no valve train clatter. Hopefully it's something easy like a dead spark plug but I won't know until I get into it...

Overall it was still a fun weekend and I am just amazed with the handling this car has now. I may have fixing to do but I'm already looking at the next upgrades to put on the list.

Also it was nice meeting a few of you over the weekend too.

hope the engine is ok and you can continue with the improvements

Had a chance to diagnose the engine last week. Its the distributor and cam gears again.....Even after checking everything I could think of last time around (and finding a bad distributor housing). At this point I'm convinced that even with the cam and gear sitting where they're supposed to that the gear pattern is poor. New plan is to check pattern with ring and pinion paste next time around. I'm thinking that a needle roller thrust bearing for the cam/block is a good idea also. I'm betting the cam will need to be shimmed forward in the block anyway to make a pattern correction. Likely won't be able to get after this for a while since the budget is pretty tight at the end of the season. There's a good chance I'll make the move to aluminum heads over the winter and that means a different intake or more modifications to the current intake to accommodate the larger big block ports. Roller cam will happen along with that upgrade as well. I'll be looking at loosing 40lbs or more off the nose of the car and about a 100HP increase.

I forgot to mention before that the new carbon fiber backed transmission syncros are down right AWESOME! Easiest engagement and perfect downshifts. They could sync up even a half hearted throttle blip and made it so easy I didn't even need to think about it.

The extra hood vent along with the additional side panels for the air dam under the radiator added up to another 10+ degree temp drop while on track. Never saw over 202 on Saturday and it only climbed up to 215 on Sunday. Why? Oh yea found that the water pump is out again too. I'll be shopping around for an upgraded one soon.

Now for some fun stuff. Pics from Gridlife at Road America.

Photo credits to Rob Wilkinson and Alayne Vetter

I absolutely love your car.  The chrome grille on a track car is just perfect. 

I had an '81 Pontiac Grand Prix in a similar dark blue.  I yanked the 350 diesel and replaced it with a 327 Chevy with TH400 trans and swapped the 10 bolt for a 12 bolt.  This was in 1983 so it got 15x7 Pontiac Rally III wheels as an upgrade to the stock steelies and white walls.  Tinted windows and Corvette leather seats.  I was the bomb (in my own mind that is).  

wawazat said:

I absolutely love your car.  The chrome grille on a track car is just perfect. 

I like the looks too but it will probably have to eventually go in the name of speed, aero, and downforce.

I keep thinking a Hood Ornament Track Club would be neat but membership would be pretty dang low....

I am an idiot and didn't recognize that this car was this car when at Road America.  Your car looked amazing on-track and was very fast.  Every time I was near you I spent the whole time gawking at the car saying to myself "That is a good looking, Fast G-body".  I only managed to run near you on Saturday and I put the two clips I have on Youtube (It's unlisted but if you have the link it should let you watch).   

Nice to "meet" you and next time I will come find you and say Hi.  Hope the engine repairs go well.  

Been working through a few customer projects and installing a cage in a prelude I hope to take W2W next year over the last couple months. Got the Cutlass in the garage over the weekend and have taken out the engine and transmission to begin winter upgrades and doing everything possible to prevent the distributor/cam gear wear.

Other upgrades include going to a Holley Terminator X system from the sniper (more computing power ECU and gets it off the engine and away from heat).

Aluminum heads have been ordered. I'll be building them in order to get the parts I need in them and setup the way I want.

As part of dealing with gear wear I'll be making the move to a roller cam. The steel core should mean that at the minimum I won't have to replace the cam if the distributor gear still wears. Haven't decided between hydraulic or mechanical yet but leaning towards mechanical for cost/fitment reasons involving the lifters.

Currently working with a clutch company on getting a custom flywheel to ditch my stack setup of flexplate/spacer/flywheel for the transmission adaptation. Plan is to upgrade the input shaft and go to a smaller/lighter dual disc clutch and aluminum flywheel. I'm anticipating around a 20lbs drop in rotating weight.

Planning to swap rears with the other car to get the 9" under this one to handle any power increase and get away from c-clip axles for safety and reduced brake pad knock-back. I'll also make some more rear geometry changes while the rear is out.

Which heads did you select?  Sounds like some good winter project work.

 In reply to pres589 (djronnebaum) :

Ended up just getting a set of Bare Speedmaster/Procomp/or what ever you want to call them since there aren't any Edelbrocks in stock anywhere right now. There's enough people out there that have experience with the Chinese castings and apparently they're ok. Worst thing about them is the parts of the assembled heads...hence getting a bare set. I have Edelbrock valves on the way to put in them then I'll spec out a spring/retainer/lock/seat package. I will also feel less bad about milling .100 at least off a brand new set of heads with much less $ into the castings.

Its so difficult to find anything in stock right now....will be at least mid January before a cam can be had...if not longer.

asphalt_gundam said:

Been working through a few customer projects and installing a cage in a prelude I hope to take W2W next year over the last couple months. Got the Cutlass in the garage over the weekend and have taken out the engine and transmission to begin winter upgrades and doing everything possible to prevent the distributor/cam gear wear.

....

As part of dealing with gear wear I'll be making the move to a roller cam. The steel core should mean that at the minimum I won't have to replace the cam if the distributor gear still wears. Haven't decided between hydraulic or mechanical yet but leaning towards mechanical for cost/fitment reasons involving the lifters.

Racing MGB's also have an issue w/ gear wear on the cam/oil pump drive. One idea that is starting to take hold is using a belt driven external pressure pump pulling from the pan. Essentially a dry sump system w/o the dry sump pan, evacuation pumps and de-areation tank. In the case of the MGB, the cam drives an oil pump gear that drives a jackshaft that drives the distributor.

The external pressure pump pulls from a pickup welded to the pan through an external line to the pressure pump through the cooler to the filter housing and filter into the engine oiling system.

If the roller cam doesn't get you where you want on distributor hear, you may want to consider this option

In reply to twentyover :

I spent time looking into an external oil pump like you mentioned as well. Extra cost aside, given the extra parts, hoses, mounting and fail safe I would more than likely go dry sump for the added performance. But all that is against my motivation to stick to the KISS method on this car. If one of these options proves necessary for keeping the gear alive my intention is to go to coil packs as well and completely eliminate both items from the equation. 

Other moves towards making sure this works are checking cam position to gear via paste for setting up axle gears, enlarging the direct oiling hole (sprays from the lifter galley onto the gear), follow through with a cam retention plate that I designed last year but didn't have time to make (to control cam thrust just like a factory SBC or Ford) and fab a distributor hold down that doesn't torque it in the bore.

Update:

Block I had to switch to was cracked..I had forgotten that it had a bent rod when taken apart. I was able to source 3 Diesel short blocks for cheap so I'll be using one of those instead. It'll hold any power I plan to throw at it easily. It's at the machine shop now. Crank is getting turned for SBC rods. I'll be getting custom pistons made for a 4.250 bore as well. I've been working on porting the aluminum heads off and on. Almost finished roughing them in. Got the new roller cam last week and it's cut for a needle roller thrust bearing. 

Just got the rear end out yesterday and started making a jig to convert the 9" from the other car to fit. Working on getting parts ordered for the trans including an upgraded input shaft and .81 OD gear. 

Finished the jig last night to get the brackets in the right place on the 9". Not perfect but good for using stuff just laying around. Will get started on the 9 after work. Need to cut old brackets off, get it in the jig, level the yoke and start fabrication of new brackets.