Best Analog 2+2

Welp, looks like I need to take a harder look at fox bodies.  I did look at ghias pretty hard and the prices weren’t actually to bad.  69 was the only year of small lights and full (non swing axle) irs and I found a fairly rust free roller for 2k.  The problem is a 180 hp type 1 would be over 10k and likely a ticking time bomb.  Type 4 more reliable but also more money.   Ghia is actually under consideration.  I also looked at capris for a little bit, ford of Europe raced them everywhere in the 70s but it seemed like parts availability would drive cost.  They are cheap but few and far between on CL.  

Out of curiosity,  is there anything in the kit car area I’m overlooking?  If I didn’t need a 2+2 I probably be looking at a locost 7 type car as I think that’s about as analog as you can get.  I’ve never seen anything like that in a 2+2, but just trying to cover all my bases....

My close friend (owner of the BMW indy shop I use) has a VERY nice 1982 320i for sale. 5 speed swap, everything works, new paint, nice interior, totally rebuilt suspension, Bilsteins, M10 with CIS injection, 105k original miles.

$5500, located in Gainesville, FL

I'll just add that a stock fox body is an ill handling heavy turd until you add $5k worth of brakes and suspension.  Also a five point slow will need a head, cam, intake swap for a 100 hp boost at which point you will have a 325 hp fun car.  I went to a fox because I like building junk vs buying good stuff.  

 If I were to build one from scratch it would have a coyote swap, but everyone is swapping to newer motors now and the old pushrod stuff is available cheap. 

Racer156 said:

Welp, looks like I need to take a harder look at fox bodies.  I did look at ghias pretty hard and the prices weren’t actually to bad.  69 was the only year of small lights and full (non swing axle) irs and I found a fairly rust free roller for 2k.  The problem is a 180 hp type 1 would be over 10k and likely a ticking time bomb.  Type 4 more reliable but also more money.   Ghia is actually under consideration.  I also looked at capris for a little bit, ford of Europe raced them everywhere in the 70s but it seemed like parts availability would drive cost.  They are cheap but few and far between on CL.  

 

Out of curiosity,  is there anything in the kit car area I’m overlooking?  If I didn’t need a 2+2 I probably be looking at a locost 7 type car as I think that’s about as analog as you can get.  I’ve never seen anything like that in a 2+2, but just trying to cover all my bases....

Im kinda suprised that Ghis are as low as they are now. It seems like they peaked in my area. With the weight you could get away with less hp. Say 100-125hp, build it yourself and get a decent deal on the car and you might be able to do it for 10k

Kit cars....since we are on VW tangent....ive always wanted a Sterling

Merkur XR4Ti with a Zetev SVT with two 40DCOE

Ok whoever suggested ghias got me doing a lot of internet searches and I think I’ve found what I’m looking for.  This:

https://chrisgarage.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/karmann-ghia-outlaw/

combined with this:

https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619

i think I can get it all together for under 20.  Kinda depends on how much rust I can get for my money on the base car.  With some vintage red Mobil emblems on the sides should look pretty slick.   Looks like some of the outlaw 356s I’ve seen.  In the vw community this is called “old speed” with the most hardcore people actually paying mega $$$ for vintage speed parts.  I’ll probably go for a “modern” n/a 2.3 crate eng from CB perf.

So it’s between this and an e21 with a 6.  Whatever hits BAT/CL/Samba first I’m getting.....

This is coming from a guy who races an E21 (bought for under $2k) - they seem to be in vogue for just about the first time ever but if I had $10k burning a hole in my pocket and I wanted something to take to the track, it wouldn't be an E21. The 2+2 ask limits the universe but, still. I've raced it for two seasons and still haven't spent $10k on it including race entry.

As others have mentioned, it's a perfectly fine chassis but you could find an '02 in that budget that isn't trashed, have just as much fun and it has the potential to hold a much stronger value. Although I enjoy seeing the E21s starting to get love, I'll be surprised if it holds up to time (although I sincerely hope it does). 

It's also 100% my opinion but if I wanted the power of a BMW 6, I'd for sure do it with fuel injection. I'm no tuner but 180hp out of a carb'd M20 seems...not right.

EDIT - I also don't want to seem like a downer or I'm saying you shouldn't buy the car you want. You definitely should. Just that I think there are better options. For instance, you can convert an E36 to manual steering and troubleshooting any fueling issues would be pretty straightforward.

Is there a specific reason you're looking for carbs?  Throttle response and/or nostalgia?

M20s and M42s and newer BMW  engines can be converted to individual throttle-bodies (ITBs!).  Kits run somewhere around $2k.  I'm sure there are more effective ways to boost power. I've never seen one in person, but they do look cool and make great sounds (according to youtube).  

It should be easy to find a track-prepped 944 for sale, at least in the southeast.

I have a 300hp sti now as a DD with all the electronic goodies so for a second car I’m really looking for the full analog experience meaning eliminating as much electronics and wiring as possible.  Roll-up windows, no-ac, no power mirrors, no power seats, and the least amount of plastic as possible.  

I searched some bmw engine builder sites and they are getting 150-160hp out of M10s on ITBs or Weber’s.  So another 300-700ccs and two extra cylinders for the M20 they are getting well over 200 hp.  I’m sure the engines are more efficient and have better emissions on ITBs but I bet the power at WOT is about the same or at least too close to call.  I ran across a 944 with side draft 50mm Weber’s making 300+ N.A.  That’s pretty impressive, but I’m sure that was a 10k+ engine.  The BMW stuff is a lot cheaper, about the same as vw stuff and there are people making manifolds for the conversion already.  I mean look at this M20 e21:

The E21 curb weight with the m20 is only 2450 lbs and the ghia is about 2000 lbs.  So really looking for something small light and quick that’s a 2+2.  Not sure if a ghia is really a 2+2 though, kinda pushes the limit. 

I tried to make my sti engine look like a type 1, this is as far as I got:

maybe be I am suffering from too much nostalgia.....

Racer156 said:

Ok whoever suggested ghias got me doing a lot of internet searches and I think I’ve found what I’m looking for.  This:

https://chrisgarage.wordpress.com/2013/10/16/karmann-ghia-outlaw/

combined with this:

https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619

i think I can get it all together for under 20.  Kinda depends on how much rust I can get for my money on the base car.  With some vintage red Mobil emblems on the sides should look pretty slick.   Looks like some of the outlaw 356s I’ve seen.  In the vw community this is called “old speed” with the most hardcore people actually paying mega $$$ for vintage speed parts.  I’ll probably go for a “modern” n/a 2.3 crate eng from CB perf.

So it’s between this and an e21 with a 6.  Whatever hits BAT/CL/Samba first I’m getting.....

Glad to hear i put you on the path, that sounds like a great idea