Leviathan888 said:In reply to WondrousBread :
The only reason I'm tied to this specific design is because all mid engine sports cars have a longitudinal engine layout, and I like the look. (so I might change my mind)
"All" mid-engine sports cars? Might want to confirm that. Mid-engine transverse: Toyota MR2, Lotus Elise/Exige/Evora, Pontiac Fiero, Lamborghini Miura, Alfa 4C and probably more that I've overlooked.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards a mid engine setup now that I've done some research and even though I stated "rear engine" in the original post, I think a mid engine would be easier and more suitable. Could I still use a VW, Porsche, or Subaru transaxle, or would I have to repurpose a front wheel drive setup? Here is an image of what I'm trying to get, and it looks like they used a transaxle? The second picture is of the Mclaren F1 engine bay, and the engine placement is where I would like mine. I don't know what drivetrain/transaxle the F1 uses though.
You can still use Subaru.
You need to cut up the center diff and TIG weld the diff together. Then you just need a flat plate to block it off. I used a 12" cast alluminum Griddle.
My $2000 Challenge car has a Mid Engined Coverted Subaru eJ25. I believe there is a way to do the same conversion to an Automatic Subaru as well.
I go through the process in reasonable detail in my build thread. There are some images in this video by our Hosts Grassroots Motorsports.
I cover some of the Spud manufacturing on page 37, but I purposely didn't cover it much because this guy did an excellent how to on 914 world.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=104513
"B7" generation of Audi A4 is the source of my transaxle, which is known as the "01X", pretty sure it's made by Getrag.
it's longitudinal FWD which I believe Audi called "FrontTrac" or something similar, ie not Quattro, so no need to eliminate the rear output of an AWD.
here's a link to car-part.com results for that transaxle, using a Whistler BC postal code
If the relationship of the wheels and the engine stays the same, you can use the drivetrain without major changes. So don't take a FWD and try to make it rear engined, just move everything from the front wheels to the back.
If you're moving to mid-engine, that opens up all sorts of FWD and AWD options. You can usually convert an AWD trans to 2WD as nocones showed. If you want a longitudinal engine, look at Subaru or Audi. There aren't many longitudinal FWD drivetrains out there, so you'll probably have to do the AWD conversion.
If you want to use Porsche, think Boxster/Cayman instead of 911 donor. Or a new Corvette :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
A mid enigne, longitudinal setup would be much preferred. As for the porsche, my original plan was to build off a Boxster, but they still fetch $8,000+. I'd like this to be really fun to drive which would incentivize RWD, so I think an AWD subaru conversion is the best bet. Again, thats a longitdinal engine and trans from a subaru converted to RWD and placed in the back. The engine and trans relationship to the wheels should be the same, only flipped around so the engine is in front of the rear wheels.
A 5 speed manual would be really nice, but I think some people were saying the linkage is hard to fabricate? If this is the case I could go automatic because while constanly learning, I'm still quite a novelty shop guy and this will be my first real build except for buggies, go-karts and minibikes.
From Nocones build, this is a picture of a mockup with the impreza engine and trans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the donor AWD Subaru the engine would be in the front of the car, the halshafts powering the front wheels, and the driveline going out of the photo would lead to a rear diff? So I'd basically follow the steps up to here then plop that whole assembly into the back of whatever frame I like, and build a fiberglass body around it.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:"B7" generation of Audi A4 is the source of my transaxle, which is known as the "01X", pretty sure it's made by Getrag.
it's longitudinal FWD which I believe Audi called "FrontTrac" or something similar, ie not Quattro, so no need to eliminate the rear output of an AWD.
here's a link to car-part.com results for that transaxle, using a Whistler BC postal code
Sourcing these wouldn't be a problem as theres lots of A4s in my area, a wrecked one being parted out or the whole car for $400. Do you think this would be any easier than what Nocones has done with a subaru? He said the diff had to be modified and welded, would this require major fabrication to set up?
Leviathan888 said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
A 5 speed manual would be really nice, but I think some people were saying the linkage is hard to fabricate?
i adapted Boxster cable shifting to the Audi 01X for my build
You've got it. You lock out the rear output (which also lets you pull a chunk of that rear housing off) and you've got your longitudinal mid engined setup.
Take a look at the Factory Five 818 kit car. That's exactly how they're put together. That also means there are off-the-shelf options for dealing with linkages and cables - various Subaru transmissions use either cables or rods.
You can get a bolt-on modification to turn the Subaru trans into 2WD. Nocones was building everything as cheap as possible (note the use of kitchen cookware), but you can trade money for effort with a part like this: https://subarugears.com/product/subaspool-5mt/
Here's another bolt-on option to convert a Subaru trans to 2WD, it's got all the parts you need. No welding or fabricating.
Leviathan888 said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:"B7" generation of Audi A4 is the source of my transaxle, which is known as the "01X", pretty sure it's made by Getrag.
it's longitudinal FWD which I believe Audi called "FrontTrac" or something similar, ie not Quattro, so no need to eliminate the rear output of an AWD.
here's a link to car-part.com results for that transaxle, using a Whistler BC postal code
Sourcing these wouldn't be a problem as theres lots of A4s in my area, a wrecked one being parted out or the whole car for $400. Do you think this would be any easier than what Nocones has done with a subaru? He said the diff had to be modified and welded, would this require major fabrication to set up?
adapting the transaxle to your chosen engine (assuming you didn't go with the Audi 2.0T), then getting your halfshafts figured out would be the hardest part. you could pretty easily fab linkage similar to what i did to get the Boxster shift cables moving things the correct distances in the correct directions.
That sounds great, factory 5s have got it down. Theres lots of imprezas around, I can probably find one in a local car yard for cheap. Any specific impreza years/models that have the engine and trans I need or is it pretty standard in subarus? Also any other models have the parts? Trying to expand the list of cars that have the parts I need in case they don't have specifically an impreza.
If this doesn't work out I'll try an Audi, AngryCorvair. I'd probably stick with the original 2.0 engine to start but in the future I might want more power and swap.
Other than that this sounds like it will work! Thanks so much for the help so far everyone, when the weather clears up for me I'll try to source some parts and do a build series.
Again doing this cheap, so I'll avoid conversion kits as long as possible but will certainly pick up the all inclusive kit if I can't do it.
In reply to Leviathan888 :
Where are you on the Island?
In reply to Leviathan888 :
The Subarugears website has some information on where the various transmissions can be found. That bolt-on kit I suggested fits 5MT TY754 and later (5 speed manual). It's worth looking at their FAQ for things like clutches and shifters, just keep in mind that you don't need to reverse the trans if you're going midengined instead of rear. For example, it mentions that you can use a TY752 trans if you don't want their bolt-on "Subanose" rear cover. That opens up all the non-turbo 5-speeds of which there are MANY.
You can find the list of donors here: http://www.rallispec.com/downloads/Transmission%20ID%20Chart_Public.pdf
In reply to Rons :
Mid island, courtenay. I frequent both ends of the island and sometimes vancouver, so anything within that area I can get.
Eddbarry motors in Nanaimo has 2.2 l Porsche 6 and transmission as well as a 912 4 speed on their website if they could be made to work.
In reply to Rons :
Alright, I might have a look at those.
UPDATE!
Went to my local wrecker/car yard in search of Subaru's or Audi's, and I found multiple of everything. They deal imports, so there was one of everything. I found probably 5 subaru foresters, 3 subaru legacies, 3 volkswagen passats, 2 audi A4's. All of these cars have the transaxle I need, most of them coming with a questionable engine too boot.
All of these are either listed as unkown engine + transmission or some bad engine + transmission.
What say you wise ones?
1. Go wrecker and buy a subaru with the transaxle, then either attempt to start a questionable unknown engine or find a good V6 from something else and adapt them
2. Buy an impreza locally for as cheap as possible with hopefully all working parts
3. Go audi and try to find a couple more of them to make one good car?
Trying to be as budget friendly as possible, but maybe you guys know junkyard stuff is instantly a no-go?
In reply to Leviathan888 :
If I can, I think taking a subaru, audi, or volkswagen transaxle and mating it with a better engine from something else in the yard would be ideal as I suppose junkyard engines are hit and miss. That might not be possible if the shafts don't line up though.
It would be a lot easier to make sure the engine attached to the transmission is in good shape than it would be to bolt something else on there. There are V6 Audis, so if you want a V6 then start with one of those. I would definitely consider a new long block or at least a new short block on a junkyard Subaru donor.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Yeah I'll start with the Audis but if they fall through go with a subaru, if its engine is trash I'll do a swap.
The Audi stuff would have the advantage of likely having dual A-arm suspension (Technically it's a wierd multilink with dual upper and lower ball joints but it's effectively dual A-arm).
Subaru will all be struts. I adapted Subaru front uprights to Dual A-arms but it's possible you would be able to just live with struts depending on how low and narrow you want the body. Struts are FINE for the back of a Mid engined car. The MR2, Fiat X19, Porsche Boxster handle really well with strut rears. the 3rd gen MR2 manages to be one of the best handling cars ever and it is Struts at all 4 corners.
All Subaru motors bolt to all Subaru transmissions. All of the 5 speeds are basically the same, but if you can find a Front Wheel Drive only 5MT it will have the most favorable ratios. Avoid Outback/Forester/Legacy transmissions as they have the worst ratio. WRX/Impreza stuff is the best. The LMP360 has a Outback Trans and I would prefer a WRX trans so I didn't have to use so much 3rd gear everywhere. Pre 2010 Subaru stuff is all pretty stratightforward to Divorce the engine from the body wireing. The older the better but apparenlty things like Can-bus and ABS modules talking to the ECU didn't start in ernest to after 2010. There is lots of information how to do it from VW Vanagan people. 2002 and older stuff the Keypass system can be removed by simply bypassing it. I do not know how easy it is on newer stuff then 2002 but again apparenlty they have it figured out up until the newer FA engines and Can Bus architecture came in.
The Subaru EJ series are adequate engines. I'm currently using a EJ25 SOHC in the LMP360. The EJ20 DOHC revs high and makes good power. They are light weight, super low CGs but are really truly prone to head gasket issues. HOWEVER.. your building a car from scratch. Putting MLS headgaskets and studs on when the engine is out of the chassis really isn't that big of a deal. A baffled Oil pan is a really good idea as apparently is a proper Air Oil Separator. The good thing about Subarus is there is a ROBUST aftermarket to fix the issues the engines have. Aftermarket parts exist to make EJ25's make 800+HP (For lots of money but the parts are there commercially available).
The EJ30/33 6-cylinder is a very long, very heavy engine. It literally is 1.5 EJ 4cylinders. There are apparently issues inherent to the design that make them poor choices for performance use. The Newer EZ30/EZ36 are apparently great engines. They where designed to fit in the same dimension box as a EJ25 DOHC so they are VERY compact 6 cylinders. They were not offered in the States with a MT so Engine management is a Roll Your own Aftermarket affair.
It is my understanding that all Subaru engines use the Same Bellhousing pattern and Flywheels are universal. Again this is my understanding if anyone knows different please correct me and I will edit this erraneous information.
I didn't look very hard, but all the subarus I saw were ones you listed with un-favourable gear ratios. In the ones I checked all the engines were the EJ25. Sounds like I'll start with audi, and good suspension is a bonus because I will likely be using that front and back. Theres a 2001 A4 for $150 locally because the front is messed up and the engine doesn't run. The transmission is good though so I could use that and all the components in the back, paired with an A4 from the scrapyard for the front components, and all I would need would be an engine from something audi.
One note about doing anything to a Subaru engine - Subaru people don't comprehend non-turbo engines. 15 minutes after you start talking about an MLS head gasket to harden an EJ25, they're at 600 hp turbo builds. Every time :) But if you can work through that, there's a lot of interchange that makes it possible to build a solid base - and I would assume that any junkyard Subaru engine is going to need a rebuild. I bought one to swap the heads on and by the time I was done, the only part I kept was the block. The whole thing was about 20 minutes away from catastrophic failure, and that's an engine that was running before a timing belt snapped and bent a couple of valves.
Thats good to know theres a different route to go as a few of them were missing their turbos. Definitely gonna rebuild if I go subaru but I think the V6 audi is my best bet to start.
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