First car build!

Hey Grassroots, I only have experience with race bikes (roadraced in the past and currently race enduros) but want to build a fun car to rip on. Here's what I've been thinking:

• 350+ hp, RWD, forced induction (if turbo stock then upgrade with kit, if N/A then slap on a supercharger).
• Must handle good without too many chassis mods (although I would plan to put a set of shocks/coilovers on the car I don't want to redesign lol), so probably counts out Mustangs and most other American cars.
• Preference is Euro over Japanese (love Saabs but no RWD)
• Budget ~$12k or so.
• Purpose of build is mainly just a mountain road ripper! Maybe take to track sometimes but track time I'd rather spend on a bike.

So the cars I've been looking at have been:

1. 1989 or so Porsche 944 Turbo - would install a Lindsey turbo kit or similar. I see cars in decent shape for $5k-$8k, kits are around $6k, suspension work could be limited to $1k (shocks only?), and that would potentially meet a $12k budget. Maybe that's too optimistic though!!

2. Mid-90's E36 M3 - Similar story, cars are around the same range, supercharger kits around $5k total investment is in the same neighborhood.

Now on those two, the considerations are that the Porsche has the look and uniqueness I love, but has an inline 4 which is not very exciting to listen to. The M3 has the inline 6 which sounds much more like a supercar (at least kind of) but the body is pretty plain and is definitely a bit less appealing in that regard.

What other options might work? I'm open to all ideas and opinions so let's hear em!

Motor swap the Porsche? Renegade Hybrids

mazdeuce wrote: Motor swap the Porsche? Renegade Hybrids

Uh, yeah I'm inclined to avoid those folks. They didn't treat the DIY community very well after stealing their ideas and shutting the forums down after buying them up.

Texas Performance Concepts is a much better vendor, IMO.

Or hit up the DIY forum and roll your own:

944Hybrids Forum

That said, I wouldn't spend much money with Lindsey racing anymore. They've been slipping a lot recently and there are better ways to make power from the 944 Turbo these days. Mostly a larger, more modern turbo with an aftermarket EFI system like VEMS, etc. buy a decent 944 turbo and add power later. Trust me.

BTW, I've had a 400hp 944 Turbo. It was a maintenance nightmare and not terribly fun to drive on the street, IMO. The guy I sold it to actually reduced the size of the turbo, made less power and enjoys driving the car quite a lot more, he's also spent a ton on more maintenance items. I'm sure he'd sell the old turbo if you're interested (it's a drop-in Garret/KKK style billet wheel and ball bearing 60mm turbo), just add VEMS and supporting hardware (bigger intercooler, injectors, oil cooler and exhaust), but it's really sized for a 3.0L engine or larger. I'll agree that the 2.5L isn't a winner from the sound department, though that 944 Turbo I had did have a nice tone to it compared to a N/A (forum resident Javelin driving my old car):

https://youtu.be/N9XC5OebdZM

The current owner at a hill climb (makes much less power here, but it is much more useful):

https://youtu.be/XuHQ7ERHPZk

I don't know much about BMW's, but aging German cars aren't something that will take well to getting a ton of forced induction thrown at it without making you pay for it in maintenance and ensuring there is enough cooling and other supporting systems to make it work reliably.

I wish you luck, but I do have to say that if you're not taking it to the track, then please don't drive like an ass on the street. It makes us all look like shiny happy people when someone goes "ripping" up the mountains.

In reply to woodsracer:

I have a 330i for sale for $1500.

In reply to petegossett:

That would make the cut for less than your total. Lots of room for suspension improvement

For 12k....go buy an e30/e36 318i in good shape (the 4cyl cars pop up dirt-cheap) and drop an S50/S52 into it. Hell, for 12k you could probably drop an LS into one and have money left for suspension and tires

In all honesty, if this is a first car build, I'd more worry about condition at purchase than considering extensive modifications right from the start.

Another thing to consider if you're not digging the 4cyl is maybe a 928 V8. The purchase would eat up most of your budget, but it would also have a lot of what you're already looking for.

I totally understand the points about making it simple and buying something that is already close to what I want. But half of the fun here is doing some fairly heavy modifications to make the car mine and unique. I enjoy the work. I'm looking into converting a Volvo AWD to RWD but seems like there are problems due to the front bias. Not heart set on RWD as long as the AWD is rear biased. Will look into what motors you can swap into the 944.

I would really love to find a good deal on a 20v Audi Quattro, those cars are badass. BTW can you find 20v heads around and would it be basically the same as the original 20v motor assuming you update the fuel system and mapping?

No idea on how you make one handle but I'd guess that $12k will build one hell of Volvo 200/700/900 series with the usual Ford 302/T5 swap and make 350hp NA no problem.

I'd suggest a 4th gen LS1 F-body. A pro-charger and some Hotchkis and you're right where you need to be.

Miata :)

Hey guys, had some financial and time delays, just getting back to a build project with a lower budget... If I plan to do typical work like intake, full exhaust, intercooler, tune, maybe mild head work - how would you guys compare handling and reliability with stock components, as well as cost for stock/performance parts and power potential per dollar on:

1. S60R (04-07) - I know about the angle gear and cylinder lining issues, expensive struts but otherwise seems reliable to about 400 bhp

2. B5 S4 - 2.7t motors seem a bit iffy, parts seem expensive but the mod world runs deep and is knowledgeable, motor sounds great

3. Somewhat considering an E36 M3 and 944 turbo still, but the M3 seems harder to tune for modest power increases without forced induction, and the 944 parts are expensive and the inline 4 as I said before is not that exciting (but the car is really cool).

Thoughts on these, mainly the first two, and anything similar I should be considering as well?

You can get a pretty good c5 for that kind of money. I hate the looks but 400 rwhp is easily done without boost, parts are relatively inexpensive, reliable... something to consider.

In reply to woodsracer :

A real classic. The Jaguar XJS.  It’s got all the good stuff in it stock plus things only real racers appreciate. 

That and a fantastically strong V12 than can easily make 650 + horsepower very cheaply.  Like under $5000  that’s ready to go play with the Trans-Am boys  (  true at that price you have to do a lot of shopping and all the work yourself  but it’s not hard!!)  

The reason it has a reputation for unreliability is it scares people. Open the hood and it’s nothing but tubes and wires and all sorts of complex stuff.  Stripped of that stuff it’s a reliable race car motor that can stand up to 850 horsepower without special parts.  

But it’s not!  The complexity is because it’s built as a Gentleman’s carriage. You don’t need or want A/C , sound system, power seats,  you don’t need or want pollution controls. Etc etc etc. strip all that off and there is this wonderful all aluminum engine that has won LeMans and national championships etc. 

and it just looks gorgeous!  Plus the sound has grown men weeping.  

Dont worry about wheels. There are tens of thousands of wheels that will fit and work.  Corvette/Camero etc  bolt on  Get silly wide and you might need to flair the fenders but that’s easy and there are nice examples to pattern after Just look for Group 44’s Jaguar or Walkinshaw’s Group 1 car  

Stock it has this really heavy duty turbo 400 automatic transmission.  But you can remove that and very easily adapt a 5-6 speed transmission from a Corvette Camero Mustang  etc. 

+1 the xj. Those look good.

In reply to woodsracer :

Personally if you are concerned about budget I'd stay far away from modifying a S60R or S4. There are simply much more reliable/easier ways to go fast in my opinion.

I thought some of the comments in this thread were pretty interesting, showing that you don't need (or possibly want ) much for street use:

Drive at legal speeds

The 944 Turbo is way underappreciated and undervalued and they have epic handling and performance potential. Buy a solid, driving 944 Turbo and enjoy it while making upgrades. Start easy with wheels/tires then springs/shocks then slotted brake discs/better pads then add a chip and wastegate spring for more boost. My friend had one and claims he got 400 hp from the stock turbo. It was lost when somebody T-boned the car and 20 years later he is still talking about the awesomeness of that car.

What about bolting a blower onto a C4 corvette?   Should be attainable in the stated budget.  If you really shop you might also find an early C5. 

One of those with forced induction would run away and hide from a hell of a lot. Chassis is pretty ready to go, shocks and sways if you really want a lot, but fresh rubber and it will probably handle better than other cars stated.

Seems many friends carve a long path and end up there as a conflence of speed and cost.  Hardly  any feel the need for a blower though...

In reply to Apexcarver :

You make a really valid point.  I’ve owned 2 corvettes and they were both great values and provided high performance for the money. 

On the other hand they like a Miata are becoming sort of like a bellybutton, that is everybody has one.  

It’s OK to dare to be different.  That’s one of the things that attracted me to GRM and keeps me coming back. 

Thanks for the comments guys.

I am really just interested in European cars. Point taken on the S60R, will cost to go fast but it is different and not a lot of people do it. People definitely do the S4's but on stock internals you can push 500 bhp. My dad has one that I might be able to score off him for cheap, looking into that. The S4 parts cost too but the 2.7t is built tough from what I hear (S60R has cyl sleeve issues). Also I think the torsen will fit my bill better than the haldex. I have def been interested in the XJS, sounds awesome and I did not know they were built as solid as you say. Not sure if I want to do an auto to manual swap right now though. 

Maybe to be more specific, what other Euro models should I be looking at as well? AWD/RWD. Maybe this S4 will work out, but would need to spend $1k to ship out west from Detroit.

R32 VW? Idk what other Euro options there are other than the E36.

I know being different is neat and all. But I like a platform with a good aftermarket community behind it.

In reply to woodsracer :

 Easy to turn the auto into a semi manual. Go to Jegs, Summit or one of the many places that sell shift Kits for the Turbo 400.    By the way the transmission is the heavy duty one used in ambulances and tow trucks  Transmissionshops should be able to do it in less than an hour if you are worried about dropping the pan.  

That turns it from a automatic into something you shift when you want to. Also tightens up the clutch pack so it stops being smooth and becomes brutal. 

I wish I knew how to post pictures I’d show you how fantastically well built these things are.   The engine block looks like an 8000 horsepower top fuel  with 4 extra cylinders. The heads are held on with more studs than 2 V8s have.   

Yes they had problems. The workers on the assembly line had to have the weakest wrists in the world because most of the troubles were caused by loose ground wires.  Radio doesn’t work? Check the black ground wire. Heater in-op? Check the black ground wire. Power seats.  Etc etc etc. 

Plus there are some  simple things you just have to know about.  For example if the engine is overheating. Just oil the distributor.  It tells you on page 65 of the owners manual that you need to oil the distributor but do you know how many perfectly good water pumps are replaced, radiators, valve jobs done because the mechanic never bothered to check the timing?  

The rear end is a Dana 44 used in 427 cobras new Corvettes etc. 

the rear suspension has needle bearings!!!! 

When they were raced in Europe they managed to fit 17X12 rims under the stock fenders  and make 500 horsepower using the stock intake and cast iron exhaust manifolds. 

The crankshaft is this massive forging made out of the steel used in formula 1 cars.  EN40 I think.  The rod bearings are 2.30 (Chevy only has 2.10) the mains are 3.00 

The last ones are the best ones. From 1992- 1996  they had the 6.0 liter with a overdrive version of the Turbo 400 and  instead of the 2.88 rear end ratio they went to 3.54. With outboard disk brakes.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Well now I want an XJS even more. Thanks for that.

In reply to barefootskater :

The factory ran the engine up to 8300 RPM  before the valves floated

the real power potential is with the early ones. 1971-1980.  In the spring of 1981 they introduced the HE  which pollutes less and gets better fuel mileage. But limits horsepower to about 450. 

All the racers used the Flathead or a version of the Flathead (1971-1980)  the last racers raced with 850 horsepower for 24 hours at LeMans. 

Part of the problem is the early ones are rare!! Most years only a thousand or so were sold. One year less than a thousand.  But the engine in the sedan is pretty much the same and so is the engine in an XKE.  

What you want are the heads of an early one.  The good news is that those tend to be the cheap unfinished projects that were taken apart and given up on. Or someone planned on an engine swap and found out how hard it actually was.  So you offer them little more than scrap money.