FREE fiat x1/9 carcass with title - Detriot

In reply to alfadriver :

Reasons to use the X1/9 suspension: 1) It is small, takes up little space in an already crowded engine bay. 2) If from a 1500cc car the wheel bearing/drive axle is super sturdy 3) It works amazingly well for as crude as it is. Remember how good an Imp handles? Stock X1/9 is the only car I have owned that is more fun per mile on the street. Unfortunately, the OP here does not have the original parts. Certainly no room width wise to do a Miata swap. Might be possible to use Civic double wishbone parts with lots of fabrication.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

The fact that they don't have parts is why I'm asking.   They can make parts, and perhaps even make a better design.  Same goes for the front.

I like the conversation, guys.

My first thought was, of course, adapting Miata suspension. After seeing how sound the chassis is, I started coming around to the strut idea once again. I am completely unashamed to admit that the idea of screwing with the car's styling was a major factor. Huge flares are cool, but I'm thinking something more subtle. Think resto-mod. The current direction is Aw 11 struts, upright and brakes. This is in no small part due to the fact that it's easy, the X was a model for the MR2 designers, and a pull a part on my travel path has 2 AW 11s. Maybe I can get to them before they're gone.

I adhere to the Colin Chapman idea that any suspension will work if you don't let it. Also, I'm trying to be realistic about my capabilities. When I built the dual A-arm suspension for my Sprite, I spent a year and a half studying before I could even strike an arc, and I still don't know if the compromises I made work. I really want to make a challenge before I die, and don't expect to win. I'd like to make a good freshman appearance, though. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

All comments and arguments are very welcome. Nothing is set in stone.

I agree with your thoughts on keeping it simple so the path to completion actually happens.  Too many "challenge" cars only ever get bench built in the owner's mind due, in no small part, to analysis paralysis or overly ambitious plans.

In reply to wheelsmithy :

No flares ever on my car, I want the tiny width for frontal area and cone clearance. If I bring it to the challenge the cone clearance will be important. I did buy it for exactly $2000. 14 years ago, and drove it 70k miles subsequently.

In reply to wheelsmithy :

All lot of front struts can be adapted to fit, so I would be tempted to just get struts and uprights from the same vehicle as whatever your engine choice comes from. Axles are going to be an important detail. Axle length will likely have to be shorter than stock given the narrow 1335 mm track width of an X1-9. Finding the appropriate axles to work with the CV joints will take some investigating, but there are a limited number of spline choices so you may be able to match components to build shorter axles. Toe can be controlled with toe links to the steering arms. The other detail to pay attention to is the angle between the axle stub center line and the center line of the strut, that will affect your roll center location and eventual camber settings. Something very close to the Fiat units would be best so you can mount to the stock top mount area.

In reply to DeadSkunk :

True, and the feedback is appreciated. Struts take about half of the calculation out of the equation, but it is still no small feat to kill bump steer, and not make it do anything stupid. The reasoning behind the MR2 idea has a lot to do with the fact that the cars are roughly the same shape. Big cars have big struts.  The leading runner right now as far as engine/transmission goes is an Acura TL stick shift, due to the 250 ft/lbs, Hp, and TORSEN. I have no idea if that can be done in budget, but it is a worthwhile dream. Custom axleshafts will have to be part of the equation-one of the good parts of a free chassis.  As foolhearty as it seems, my plan is to do minimal suspension work, and carry a big stick (for a sub 2000 lb car). We haven't even researched rust, but I have plans to buy a 4' break.

To give you a weight target, my car is currently 1986 lbs with 1/2 tank of fuel. Almost all sound deadening removed, bumpers gone, enormously heavy original exhaust gone. It was 2200 when first purchased. Original engine is surprisingly light for an iron block, but I have not weighed it. Transaxle not as light as it looks.

wheelsmithy said:

I like the conversation, guys.

My first thought was, of course, adapting Miata suspension. After seeing how sound the chassis is, I started coming around to the strut idea once again. I am completely unashamed to admit that the idea of screwing with the car's styling was a major factor. Huge flares are cool, but I'm thinking something more subtle. Think resto-mod. The current direction is Aw 11 struts, upright and brakes. This is in no small part due to the fact that it's easy, the X was a model for the MR2 designers, and a pull a part on my travel path has 2 AW 11s. Maybe I can get to them before they're gone.

I adhere to the Colin Chapman idea that any suspension will work if you don't let it. Also, I'm trying to be realistic about my capabilities. When I built the dual A-arm suspension for my Sprite, I spent a year and a half studying before I could even strike an arc, and I still don't know if the compromises I made work. I really want to make a challenge before I die, and don't expect to win. I'd like to make a good freshman appearance, though. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

All comments and arguments are very welcome. Nothing is set in stone.

The time invested in the design part makes a lot of sense.

My "initial' thought (as Robbie offered some time to me over a year ago) was to adapt the Miata design, and build a subframe that would fit and still use the dimensional A arms.  And I kind of thought that the springs would be really close to attaching to teh same strut connection point.  But that was in my mind and not with a cut Miata subframe and a car in front of me.

The other driver to the thinking is to make a X1/9 DM car.  Which you pretty  much are with the Honda powertrain (although, is that 2.3 or 2.0?).  Most of the EM and DM cars are 100% tube framed, but you get a weight advantage (if you can take it) by using enough of the original chassis.  Which you are also doing.

Since the challenge started in 1999, I always thought a really good "theme" would be to build a car that fits into an SCCA class, and does really well at the Solo Nationals.  Which is why these crazy thoughts keep coming into my head.  And in the last few years, examining the rules and how much fabrication is generally done (relative to the speed parts you have to spend big bucks on), DM and EM seem to be the best fit for a Challenge car.

In reply to wheelsmithy :

I love the J-series swap for the same reasons, but it may be too wide to fit easily. I just had one out in the garage (‘05 pilot) with the trans connected. I did not measure anything but it didn’t look very compact. It did however ride on a cradle that carries the control arms and attaches to the car with 4 bolts. That means the drivetrain and suspension could be moved en-mass to another home by building the 4 mounting points, strut mounts and one engine mount. This gave me lots of future project ideas. Obviously this is only helpful if you are interested in flares to match the drivetrain donor width. If big flares are off the table I would  suggest looking at the Honda K-series instead. Lots of documented swaps, pre-made custom axles available donors are plentiful and becoming less expensive all the time. Actually why didn’t I just do that?  My suspension is coming out in the near future so give a shout if you want anything measured. 

I can't really tell you what you should do beyond I've always wanted to put a 308 or 328 engine in one, which I think would let you run SM2 as fiat owns ferrari these days so they are "same brand"

I can tell you that putting a Cadillac 500ci engine in it is just plain stupid and makes it nearly undriveable...  Its ot that hard  and doesn't cost much but the world just doesn't need another Fiadillac 

I'm not sure that the world doesn't need another Fiatillac.

One of the reasons the miata front subframe got crossed off the list is the size of the thing. Front steer doesn't help, either.

The A-arms are huge, and to get to ride height, would (to my eyeball, not a measuring tape) have to cut into the footwells. Yes, there is no finer suspension made, other than a Corvette, maybe, but Here in the planning phase, I think struts will do the job. Crude, but effective. 

As to the width of the TL engine and transmission, I have no data. I haven't even measured the engine bay. I know it's tight. While I have no aversion to fabrication, this pipe dream may not pan out. 

Flares are not off the table, but I'd like to keep them tasteful. Not exactly sure what that means at this point, but I'd like a nice, vaguely streetable car at the end. Autocross classing always screws up my dreams. If I'm honest, I just like building stuff. Being outclassed in autocross is almost a given, because I'm not going tube-frames, LS powered monstrosity. Fun is the goal, and to get to the challenge. My thought process doesn't necessarily make sense. Which is fine. 

wheelsmithy said:

The A-arms are huge, and to get to ride height, would (to my eyeball, not a measuring tape) have to cut into the footwells. Yes, there is no finer suspension made, other than a Corvette, maybe, but Here in the planning phase, I think struts will do the job. Crude, but effective. 

...

Parts that will fit are a great choice imo.  Stunts work pretty well and that the way the chassis is designed to handle the loads.....honestly I'd look around for x1/9 front suspension ;)

Flares are not off the table, but I'd like to keep them tasteful. Not exactly sure what that means at this point, but I'd like a nice, vaguely streetable car at the end. Autocross classing always screws up my dreams. If I'm honest, I just like building stuff. Being outclassed in autocross is almost a given, because I'm not going tube-frames, LS powered monstrosity. Fun is the goal, and to get to the challenge. My thought process doesn't necessarily make sense. Which is fine. 

Look long and hard at the structure.  As I recall the wheel wells are part of the structure and are pretty small.  A subframe of some kind solves that...not necessarily  an Eldorado subframe flipped backwards, but some kind of subframe.

.....unless you build some new structure.

wheelsmithy said:

I'm not sure that the world doesn't need another Fiatillac.

I'll add this thought which is what I was really on about when I said the world doesn't need another fiadillac....balance.

The Eldorado engine/trans setup LOOKED like a great option.  8.3 liter and I only had to stretch the car like 6", what's not to like?    What I didn't really think about was the way the eng/trans was set up a good chunk of the weight ended up behind the rear axle so even though I added at least 500lbs to the car the nose was sitting 2-3 " higher than stock when I first let it down off the jacks...which along with the 500lb torque led to front wheels off the ground when the throttle was pressed.  

I don't think any of the options you're talking about would be that bad but any FWD transverse V engine setup I've seen looks to be design specifically to move the weight as far rearward as possible, great in the FWD, but not so great for a rear mid engine.  Just something to think about.

mke said:

wheelsmithy said:

I'm not sure that the world doesn't need another Fiatillac.

I'll add this thought which is what I was really on about when I said the world doesn't need another fiadillac....balance.

The Eldorado engine/trans setup LOOKED like a great option.  8.3 liter and I only had to stretch the car like 6", what's not to like?    What I didn't really think about was the way the eng/trans was set up a good chunk of the weight ended up behind the rear axle so even though I added at least 500lbs to the car the nose was sitting 2-3 " higher than stock when I first let it down off the jacks...which along with the 500lb torque led to front wheels off the ground when the throttle was pressed.  

 

I don't see a problem.  Wheelie's for the win!

In reply to Indy-Guy :

It makes it very hard to steer....you end up feeling like the kid with a pretend steering wheel "helping" drive.

In reply to mke :

   One option, a similar car, MR2 

      Or get the front suspension off any front drive car, but you will need 2 sets of the front suspension, one for the front and one for the back.  This would be similar to what was done originally.  Any front drive engine will go in the back, again much like what was done to make the X1/9.

I like the Mr2, A LOT, but have higher horespower/torque goals for cheaper. I actually own a 4AGE, and love the engine, but want to do something different for this project.

There's approximately 31-1/2" between the X's frame rails. That could easily be stretched 4", but beyond that gets somewhat major.

TL track: 63.2" 

RSX: 58.5"

TSX: 62.2"

Civic Si (breadbox):57.9"

2000 Celica Gt-s: 58.6"

X1/9: 52.9" (rear)

This ia all superficial research at best, but some stats.

Matt Brannon at Midwest Bayless has done the RSX conversion, I think still using the Fiat suspension. He said axles were relatively easy.

Yeah, you just need short axles and use the x1/9 suspension. The x1/9 axles are actually BEEFY. Like 31 mm diameter or something. 

Actually a bit bigger than a Nissan j30 axle diameter (ask me how I know).

Since the x1/9 axles are big, it means there is plenty of meat to mate something else too. I haven't looked closely at the splines yet - but it is possible that the x1/9 shares a spline with something else if you wanted to use a different inner and shaft with Fiat outer CV + suspension.

In reply to wheelsmithy :

VW Rabbits were about 54" front track and have had just about every VW motor swapped into them.

Transverse Rotary Turbo

:)

In reply to Robbie :

Only 1500 cc X1/9 axles are big. !300 cc ones are to fragile for a stock Fiat. The 1500 CV joints are Ferrari 308!

TurnerX19 said:

In reply to Robbie :

Only 1500 cc X1/9 axles are big. !300 cc ones are to fragile for a stock Fiat. The 1500 CV joints are Ferrari 308!

I KNEW a 308 engine was a good choice for the swap!  Its practical a bolt-in :)