I know this runs counter to logic, this being grassroots motorsports and all. But I want to swap an automatic transaxle into a vehicle whose chassis never had an automatic, and neither did it's engine ever come bolted to one. I'm going to avoid saying the type of vehicle to try to keep my thread focused, but let's suffice it to say this a SOHC 1.3 litre iron block engine with simple, drive by cable, port EFI. My car is a 2010 model, one of the last years it was made. Furthermore, it's a clockwise rotation engine so a Honda d series trans is off the table.
I have some ideas about something that might be kinda close to the right size and configuration, and also that is readily available in the country where I live as an American expat. They would be SOHC opel, daewoo, and Toyota yaris to name 3.
Of course I will need to make an adapter plate. I suppose the issues would be similar to a manual trans adaptation, for issues like crank to trans distance, CV shaft clearance, length, spline count....
It might be easier to adapt a flex plate to a crank than a flywheel?
I suppose one of the biggest issues would be controlling the shifts. I'd want to look for a manually shifted unit. If I can't find one, like that, maybe I can adapt a sequential shifter type setup from something else.
What ideas do you have?
Why do you think that leaving out critical information is going to keep the thread focused?
What's the car, what's the motor, what's the budget?
So you want to swap an automatic transaxle into a car so you can have manually shifted gear changes... Seems counter-intuitive. Also, without knowing the brand or model of car, we have no idea what the specs are for mounting, crankshaft/flywheel, trackwidth, etc... Also is this turbo-charged or NA? That can affect the space in the engine bay too. Also, is this FWD, RWD, AWD?
Too many variables to even begin to discuss hypotheticals.
Mr_Asa
PowerDork
8/9/21 4:20 p.m.
APEowner said:
Why do you think that leaving out critical information is going to keep the thread focused?
Honestly, this level of secrecy makes me want to derail it more.
I'm fighting it, though!
Be a rebel, be a modern man, race an auto.
Mr_Asa said:
APEowner said:
Why do you think that leaving out critical information is going to keep the thread focused?
Honestly, this level of secrecy makes me want to derail it more.
I'm fighting it, though!
And, doing a darn good job!
OK sure I'll reveal the secret. It's a Ukrainian built Aza Tavria 1105 pickup. Unlike otther Soviet designs, apparently it is not derivative of a FIAT or anything else. Evedently the engine is a clean slate design. non cross flow sohc. Engine code Memz 3701. The next gen car is called the Daewoo Sens, also never availble with an auto but used the same engine. Later collaboration with Daewoo/opel occurred with the Nubira and maybe even the Nexia. The Aveo might even share some parts. There were GM engined cars in the later models that had an auto, so I'm starting there.
I've already begun converting the funky 3 lug hub system to 4x100 stuff from a Sens in front and Golf Mk2 in back.
NOw what do you think?
This is the carbureted version.
carb'd engine in the same chassis
Mr_Asa
PowerDork
8/10/21 1:28 a.m.
Oh wow. You may be up a creek with that plan unless you find some forum that specializes in those motors and/or vehicles. It sounds like you may already know the bolt pattern for the bellhousing? If so then it would definitely help to know what matches it or is close.
Still, there are harder challenges. You mentiined making your own adapter between the two components? Offhand I remember that AngryCorvair has mated an Audi transmission (I think it was an Audi trans, don't quote me) with a small block Chevy V8 engine so you might check his thread for issues he ran into.
Its an obvious question, but it will be asked sooner or later, is there a reason you want to go with that specific engine as opposed to doing an entire engine and transaxle swap?
"
is there a reason you want to go with that specific engine as opposed to doing an entire engine and transaxle swap?
"
Yes, despite the lawless nature of Ukraine, when it comes time to sell a car the government ministry inspects it. One thing they check for is that the engine number matches the chassis number. There's not a lot more to the check than that. It's not the greatest engine. Non crossflow, rated at 66hp. But the vehicle weighs only 1700lbs so it's not too bad. I wouldn't rule out a turbo down the line, but the type of city driving i do here, often bumper to bumper with potholes everywhere, doesn't make it easy to use more power very often.
When driving my 2008 Alfa diesel around town my left knee gets sore from using the clutch constantly.
Of course I've talked to local repair guys regarding whether an auto ever came mated to it, or whether a Daewoo or Opel block will bolt up. But they always say Het (no). I'm not sure whether they think I'm crazy (arguably true of course), or don't want to speak to a foreigner even with google translate, or if they just have never contemplated it. I know a couple of car guys here that build stuff, but they aren't interested in Tavrias. I tried to join a Tavria forum but wasn't allowed, I think because of the language barrier.
My next plan is to find a place that has some Memz blocks and geo and daewoo trans laying around.
But the rest of my questions still stand. What would you look for in a trans? I suppose I'd like one the older the better to avoid the need for more electronic control. How will I control it? My goal is not sequential shifting. Full automatic is preferable, but I could live with sequential to save my knee. Also, my Ukrainian girlfriend can't drive a stick.
It might not be related to the Fiat engine, but it sure looks like a carbon copy of it....not that this helps a ton given the lack of automatics used in the Fiat 1300 applications.
I'd approach this from an engineering constraint perspective: what are your critical dimensions (engine bay, driveshaft placement, etc) and work backward from there. Find a transaxle that fits those dimensions and start working up the adapter flange needs. I won't call it an easy project, but if you're fabrication friendly and mechanically inclined you should be able to make it work. From an ease perspective, I'd be looking for an older transmission controlled with a TV/kickdown cable instead of one with ECU control.
My thoughts exactly. What are some older fwd cars, powered by clockwise engines, with overdrive autoboxes and manual kickdown control? Maybe that's the only question I should have asked.
Swapping in an auto that you want to manually control seems a bit backward.
What is the the reason a stick can't be used at all? If it's just because yourGF can't drive a stick now.....I think it would be easier to teach her
My fears of thread derailment have been realized. Not typical of my experience on GRM. I want to do it even if I can't justify it.
If Wikipedia is to be believed the Deawoo Sens is the same as a Deawoo Lanos which did come with an auto although not with that engine. Unfortunately both autos that were available in the car were electronically controlled. So, I don't think there's going to be an option for bolting together factory parts to get what you're after.
From a high level view you have three things that you need to deal with.
- Engine to transmission interface
- Flexplate to crank
- Flexplate to torque converter
- Starter motor mounting
- Starter motor to flexplate
- Bellhousing to block
- Transmission Control Options
- Use a transmission with a traditional hydraulic valve body
- Use an aftermarket standalone transmission controller
- Use a transmission and controller that were offered in the car
- Transmission to car interface
- Mounts
- Axles
Mounts are pretty easy to fabricate and axles can be custom made at whatever lengths you need with whatever ends you need. Because there's no bolt in option I'd worry the least about finding a transmission that came in the car and more about how to control it and how to adapt it to the engine.
Ideally you'll be able to find a hydraulic valve body transmission that bolts up to the motor. Research what transmission came with that engine in all platforms and what other engines came with those transmissions and you may be able to identify a FWD auto that'll bolt up.
If there isn't anything that bolts to the motor then you're in for a bunch of design and fabrication.
If Wikipedia is correct, the Fiat Ritmo, which was the development of/successor to the Fiat 128, came with an automatic which Fiat bought from VW and modified. We are stacking up a few ifs here, but if your engine is inspired by a Fiat design, the Fiat version of the VW auto might be a thread worth pulling on and seeing if it leads anywhere.
I haven't tackled such a project myself, but I've read about folks using a Microsquirt ECU to control an automatic transmission. There are various examples in the MegaSquirt forums if you think this sounds interesting. Taking this approach doesn't solve any of the physical fitment issues, but might open up the pool if possible transaxles to something closer to the dimensions you need and more available in your local market.
The Fiat Ritmo automatic is an old fashioned hydraulic unit. I think it is only a 3 speed, but I have never seen one.
Daewoo is GM. If it is the same block used in the daewoo then it will be family 1 small block and any of the opel/daewoo/vauxhall/holden small car auto's will bolt straight up. Get some photos of the block and i can compare, I might have a spare engine block or two laying around.
the GM transmission does use a computer controller, i may again have one here somewhere.
I'll get s photo of the gearbox bolt pattern for a GM tomorrow
carwhisperer said:
My fears of thread derailment have been realized. Not typical of my experience on GRM. I want to do it even if I can't justify it.
We're here for you on this! Don't let a few naysayers turn you away.
TurnerX19 said:
The Fiat Ritmo automatic is an old fashioned hydraulic unit. I think it is only a 3 speed, but I have never seen one.
It might be a perfect fit in this application, old and slow or not. I don't expect the OP is hoping to go fast in this little truck. I've never seen one of these either, but since he's in Eastern Europe he should have better access than I do here in the States.
My therapist told me that I should work on recognizing situations where a person is looking for sympathy, rather than a solution.
Sorry about your knee, my dude.
In reply to ae86andkp61 (Forum Supporter) :
AS of late I've been thinking along the lines of a VW trans. When were the earliest transverse VW autos? I can't think of any Mk1 or Mk2's that had them in the states.
I took some photos of some Tavria and Daewoo bell housings today. I'll post some pictures to see if it gives you guys any ideas.
the Daewoo Lanos use the GM 4T40 IIRC. It was also a DOHC version of the much lamented Pontiac LeMans from the late 80's. Both truly terrible cars.
In reply to carwhisperer :
There were automatic Mk1 VW Golf/Rabbits in the USA. I worked on a few when they were new, even one Scirocco. I think that is the trans Fiat used in the Ritmo (called Strada in the states) Fiat definitely did there own bell housing. VW might not have offered the automatic in non US markets.
