It's....Different. 1997 Camaro SS AutoX/Track Car

With the watts link lower, the car isn't nearly as diabolical on lift/entry.  Good.  But it still has PLENTY of rotation and I think I would back it down another notch if I weren't changing anything else.  However I ordered softer springs that will be here tomorrow - about 75% for street comfort, 25% because I think the car is too stiff for street tires.  So even if I am wrong about the second half, too bad, I want it to ride nicer anyway.  On the car is 800/400, going to try 550/150.  

Discovered at the event that what I thought was a 5-position rear sway bar only has 2 of the holes drilled large enough for the bolt currently in the endlink - and it's set to the softer position already.  So changing that wasn't an option in the middle of the heat.

I hit all the cones again, this is what happens after running an event in my Miata.  Raw time was good for top 10 pax, 3% off the pace - but this is a smaller less competitive region, and cones do count.  Not a great result.  I took a while to get used to the car again and dropped about half a second every run for 5 runs.  That's usually a confidence/comfort problem - I wasn't fixing half second mistakes each run, I was pushing incrementally harder rather than being comfortable in the car from the outset. :(

Good news is I got a few pictures of the car on course, finally!

Those three pictures represent hard braking just short of ABS, heavily loaded cornering and then full throttle thereafter.  To me that looks like the car is too stiffly sprung for the grip level.  Doesn't much matter if it is because of the tires or the surface, the car has almost zero visible pitch/roll.  You can see the tires working but the chassis is staying put.

Cone video:

A former co-worker with a black Focus ST (in GS) goes to those events often. Not sure if he went to this one, but he has been trying to get me to go.  Unfortunately, on the rare occasions I'm home, my weekends are mostly tied up with chores.  It does look like a fun venue so hopefully I'll get down to one eventually.

Got some cool photos of the car in action, but am driving it slower than it looks.  The tires are down to 2/32 with trashed shoulders and they're very resistant to multitasking at this point.

Spaceship!

I put the softer springs on.  These are also stock style in stock type perches, no adjustability.  Easy button for ride comfort. Car also looks better slammed amirite?!

Old rates were 800f 400r.  New are 550f 150r.  Drastically softer but still spring rates that many people are running for street tires with decent success.

Performance at the two events last weekend was 'meh' and full of cones.  Tomorrow is back to Pocono again for a comparison of the new springs to the old springs, on the same tires/surface/competition.  I am half expecting it to be slower because there are usually 2 or 3 long slaloms and i just took a bunch of spring out of the car.  Maybe the increased ability to put power down will make up for it, maybe not.

New springs in place.

Nice of GM to provide this handy worktable:

On the way to the event it rolled over 38k miles.

I do like the way it looks now.  Although from this angle I think the front end looks like a Probe.  Something about the bumper profile and the fender cut.

So, for the actual event, it went much better than expected.  The rear is sufficiently stable now that I can do silly things like use the throttle in a sweeper, chuck the car into a slalom without crapping my pants, and lift + turn in to a corner at 65 mph without dying.  It's a lot better.  It lost some transitional stiffness obviously, so slaloming feels sorta like my old ES Miata where you have to lead the car by a mile as it flops from left bump stops to right bump stops and back again.  But at the same site, same slalom spacing, a week apart with the only change being springs...my speed through increased by 2-3 mph which is significant.  Being able to roll onto the throttle without a counter steer EVERY time was refreshing.  When it did step out, a small steering correction is all it needed.  Much more driveable all around.

Numbers.  I like numbers:

I have a problem.  This was supposed to be the last event for the car this season.  Now I REALLY want to run it again before winter.

The one strength these cars have is decent power. They need to be set up so that you can use that power. Not surprised you went faster with a better spring split and rates the damper can handle.

I started off at 1200/550 with the current setup and have been trending towards 1200/450. That will change with the new weight and weight bias, but the important part is setting the back up so that you can get on the power stupid early. And somehow have it not suck everywhere else. The more power you add the harder it gets.

Good news.  Got a 315 hoosier on a 9.5" wide wheel... partly just to see if I could. But holy E36 M3 what a job that was. I do not want to do 3 more of those things.  With a 20 year old tire machine (no assist arms or anything) it took two pry bars, 4 hands and all the lube.

Bad news.  Went to test fit on the front and it is clearly hub swap time.  They were snug before the last event, and the driver's side is full of wobble now.  Passenger side would still pass tech for sure, so i will install the spare hub in the driver side for this weekend's event.  Depending how quickly the wear continues, might hunt down junkyard hubs since I can't see spending $120+ each when they're basically a consumable.  Probably makes sense to sack up and put the bulletproof ones on - but I want to wait til late winter / tax refund season to spend that money.

315 on a 10.5 fits a lot better than 315 on a 9.5.  Exactly as you'd expect but it's neat to see the difference.

RedGT said:

..it took two pry bars, 4 hands and all the lube.

Sounds like my ex-wife.

My 94 needed hubs when I bought it.  From the research I've done this is a common 'wear item' on 4th gens when they are tracked.  I don't know of any upgraded hubs that might last longer than OEM style ones.  If I need to do hubs regularly it's going to be a PITA as I have ARP studs in them. 

pontiacstogo said:

My 94 needed hubs when I bought it.  From the research I've done this is a common 'wear item' on 4th gens when they are tracked.  I don't know of any upgraded hubs that might last longer than OEM style ones.  If I need to do hubs regularly it's going to be a PITA as I have ARP studs in them. 

It is common.  There is an upgraded/bulletproof solution in the form of SKF X-Tracker hubs engineered for the C5 Corvette, plus adaptors to fit them to the Camaro.  The hubs go for $400 each, and are available in a kit with the Camaro adaptors and hardware for $999 from Detroitspeed.com or Stranoparts.com.

https://www.detroitspeed.com/x-tracker-hub-adapter-kit-1993-02-camaro-firebird-030601

Cool (but pricey).  Jim Dulaney (sp?) was making billet hub adaptors for a while but that was some time ago.  I remember reading about them when FRRAX was active - I think they were in the $400 to $500 range and used a stock Vette bearing.

My understanding is that the adaptor ($250 for the pair now, yes it appears they used to be 400-500) plus stock vette bearing isn't really any longer lasting - the X-Tracker things were developed in the first place because the corvette hubs suck on corvettes.  But I don't have any direct experience, that's just "internet data".

Couple of small updates:

• SKF (normal $100 type) hub arrived, I installed it on the driver side.  At least these things are easy.  It took literally 16 minutes start to finish including finding tools, though I did not swap studs around.
• Driver side hub had over 0.030" of play/runout measured across the ~5" hub face.  Impressive.
• Ordered another hub for the passenger side.  Should arrive today.
• Got the car on the lift and pulled the trans tunnel X-brace off for access to the torque arm nut.  Still no luck adjusting it.
• While poking around at the back of the transmission, noticed the exhaust mount was missing one bolt and the other was loose.  If that came the rest of the way off, the whole exhaust would be hanging unsupported off the headers.  Fun!  Tightened up for now but will need to go back and add the other bolt + add lock nuts or lock washers.

I'm stupid enough I plan to run one of the CPR events this weekend.  It's only 3 hours for a local autocross.  Yay?

pontiacstogo said:

RedGT said:

..it took two pry bars, 4 hands and all the lube.

Sounds like my ex-wife.

for you, maybe.

sorry, couldn't resist.

RedGT said:

I'm stupid enough I plan to run one of the CPR events this weekend.  It's only 3 hours for a local autocross.  Yay?

Pretty sure we'll be there Saturday as well.

Cool, see you there, hopefully.  For some reason i am apprehensive about this drive even though the first thing i did with the car was drive 200 miles, then 1000 more, without even looking under it. Now I've broken and fixed a bunch of stuff, and gotten to know it...it should be better, right?  200 miles on the highway is simply the distance between gas stops, which I did 6 times in a row across half the country.  NoBigDeal.

The other hub is installed.  Finally got it inspected today as well!  Didn't get to the exhaust yet, that is still in the box.  One more event of full blown 'murica noises.

My wife drives my Camaro as well so we are both registered for Saturday - not sure yet if we will run Sunday as well (we've not run at this event before).  Let me know if you need a contact number in case you run into any problems on the road.

The drive to and from the event went beautifully - it was the first drive on the new springs that was also on the nice soft Conti ECS daily driver tires rather than the rough/stiff sidewall old RE71R. I really like this car on the highway now.  With an exhaust going out the back it should be even better.  I spent 6.5 hours on the highway Saturday going to/from the autocross and didn't mind a bit.

The event...not a great performance, but a useful learning experience and certainly a beautiful day/drive/site up in the mountains at the peak of fall foliage season.  The course was probably the tightest I have tried to get this huge car to fit through.  In the morning it was ~40* so I left the continental street tires on.  I was slow and hit many cones.  In the afternoon it was more like 60*, nice and sunny, so I put the RE71R on.  I was equally slow and hit just as many cones.  With only 3 runs to try to warm the tires, it wasn't enough and the 'stones turned/braked/accelerated notably worse than the Continentals despite having better conditions to run in.  Not exactly a surprise that the old dead tires are getting older and deader, but I thought it was pretty cool to quantify it with a back-to-back test like that.  If I had more runs, warmer weather or a codriver, the RE71R would have managed to be quicker than the contis.

% off top pax was 8%, which is still better than the last time I ran the Continentals before the spring change.  The car was driveable and fun, just low on grip.

The oil leak seems like it's worse in cold weather, about 1/4 qt in 400 miles.  The back of the car gets filthy much faster, and the drips on the ground are getting pretty bad.  I won't run another autocross like this.  So it's in the garage now and tonight I'll wipe everything clean and see if it's coming from a gasket point that I can RTV for now, or if I need to pull all the stuff off the front of the engine to replace the Crank/WP/Optispark shaft seals.  I'm guessing it is the latter.

Boring post without pics.

• Cleaned up the front/bottom of the engine
• Zero drips when not running
• No evidence of oil dripping down from above (which would be the water pump seal, Optispark seal, or intake gasket/RTV failure)
• Pulled the crank pulley off to check out the seal.  Inconclusive, but oil is definitely being flung around by the crank pulley a little bit.  May as well replace that seal.  It's way easier than resealing the front of the oil pan which is the other choice.

Waaaaait a sec, I pulled off the underdrive pulley and that was it.  Uh.  Harmonic balancer?  No?  None?  All the underdrive pulley kits currently on the market for this engine advise that the new small pulley is supposed to be sandwiched between the crank nose and the re-installed stock balancer which then just hangs out the front by about a belt width.  Makes sense.  This particular pulley on my car, had bolts that appear to have come from the manufacturer at the right length for no balancer install, and also have a custom shoulder to friction fit the underdrive pulley which is not the same diameter as a stock pulley's bolt holes - point being it really looks like the intent of the part was to be installed with no balancer.  The company (Mallory Billet Aluminum, no relation to the ignition company) went out of business in about 2005 so I can't find any old school documentation or instructions online.  The absence of a balancer sketches out me (and everyone I have talked to about it) so I ordered a stock type unit to install.  I can't see how it would cause problems to have one on there.  Just a couple of HP lost to spinning more mass.

The cheapest balancer that rockauto had, arrived with the offset holes drilled backwards (meaning if I installed it like a stock one should be, the machined flat surface would be facing away from the crank nose and the belt would not fit).  So I've ordered the second cheapest one now, a Dayco unit, and hopefully it arrives with the correct hole pattern.  It's worth mentioning, this is also my first rockauto fail, and isn't really their fault assuming they process my refund.

• Crank seal out.  Easy.
• New crank seal in, with PVC + stacked washers to pull it into place
• aaaaand it is in the bore slightly sideways.  My hacksaw pvc cut was not straight.  berkeley.  Tried to finish seating it with wood and brass to tap it into place, no luck, ended up dinging the front of the metal surface of the seal
• Crank seal out.  Easy.
• Since they're like $5 I ordered 2 this time, and will use better tools and more lube.
• None of this is a delay because I'm waiting for the new damper/balancer to show up.
• Commute in the Miata for 1.5 weeks of gorgeous top-down fall weather.  OK.  Fine.  I can handle this.

Car is back together and has been for months, but no interesting updates.  There's a little less NVH at high RPM with the balancer installed (duh...?).  Replaced the PCV just in case, the old one wasn't stuck but wasn't exactly free floating either.

Still has a small leak which I am blaming on the slight surface rust of the crank snout/damper shaft.  It's a separate piece from the crank, I will probably just buy a new one for $80ish instead of trying to clean it up.  FFS, it's a crank seal on a small block chevy, there's millions of these things and they don't seem to be known for leaking.

Hibernation time for now.

Oh!  And I found another set of 18x10.5 wheels for $scrap value and picked up another set of (4) used 315 Hoosier A7's.

RedGT,

First time poster on this site. i came across this post on a google search. I actually went and looked at this car in early May of last year when it was for sale, but decided not to buy it. I live about 2 hours south of where it was in Nebraska. I'm glad that it went to a good home, and it looks like you're having a blast with it!

I wanted to let you know a little tidbit that the previous owner told me when I looked at the car. He said that the water pump had been replaced before he bought it, so if I was in your shoes I wouldn't be as worried about the water pump/opti issues many LT1 owners face, especially with the low miles the car has (although, the water pumps on these cars can be kind of a pain). I look forward to seeing more updates on the car come spring!

Jeremy

Just seeing this now, thanks for the info Jeremy.  I ended up in touch with the previous-previous owner who is the one you mentioned that did the water pump, along with most of the other work on the car its whole life.  He knew the car from new, first saw it with 200 miles on the odo, and then owned it himself from approx 2012-2016 or something like that.

Currently i have been dailying the car on days it is too hot or wet for the miata to be top down.  It is a ton of fun.  (And the AC works great.)  Just rolled over 39,000 miles.  First event of this season is finally coming up this weekend.

Not too much happened over winter.

With personal schedules all messed up because of Coronavirus, the Camaro was a grocery getter a few times, because why not?

A friend who goes through cars quickly, bought a '03 with similar level of prep but a much less awesome color:

And I washed it!  That's the extent of the prep so far.  The first event is going to be on pure street tires because the RE71's are dead and the Hoosiers aren't allowed at what is technically a TrackSprint because TS safety rules require a roll bar with sub-200tw tires.

Looking good - I'm pretty sure your friend was running at the CPR event this past weekend.