Last minute buying advice: '05 Volvo S60

There's an S60 across town from me that I intend to check out after work today. In the photos, it looks relatively clean sans driver side mirror, with no visible body rust and unripped seats. From what I've read on this forum, Volvos are pretty resilient against corrosion. The seller says that the car runs well, but the auto transmission slips in 1st and 2nd. From my research here, this seems like a common problem that could be solved with any combo of new ATF, a solenoid or a complete valve body. Is there a good way to diagnose what's actually wrong? I'm going to take my trailer so that I can get it home if I like it, the seller's asking price is $750 but he's negotiable. I'm thinking for $500 or so I'll take the risk on fixing it myself. My lady's sister needs a car to get back and forth to school, and if nothing else it's never a bad thing to have a good highway car in the family.

Even at $750 I'd buy that and give it a shot.  If you have the title, you can scrap it for $500.

For $750, I'd buy it and slap a transmission into it.  2.4 front drive auto, I assume?

Erie Vo-vo lists a whole lot of transmissions for the front drive 2.5t, $775-875 range.  One nonturbo transmission.  Did not look into the T5s because that does not appear to be a T5.

If it IS a T5, the engine alone is worth $2000 minimum.  Note that T5 is very different from 2.5T... the T5 is essentially the S60R engine with a smaller (stronger) bore and smaller injectors.  Same mahoosive turbo though.  It is the "drug of choice" for big power builds since it has the beefy crank and rods and strong 81mm bores and the best cylinder head.  Allegedly a 600 crank horsepower longblock, just add air and fuel.

The 2.5t is... not.  But that is okay, you really don't want to add much power to the 5 speed auto.  Even the 2.5t was boost limited to keep the trans happy.

It's a 2.4 fwd non turbo. As a personal rule, I don't deal with turbo cars.  When I got there, he couldn't get it to start, it had a massive windshield crack and the rubber around both windshields was toast. I suggested we try jump starting it from the actual battery, not just the terminal thing under the hood, and it fired right up. Talked him down to $550, trailered it home and threw the battery from my FC RX7 into it while the original battery sits on the charger. 
 

I drove it up and down my lane which is a few miles long, seems like the transmission has more of a shudder than a slip, and only when you brake from higher speeds down to 1st or 2nd gear territory. Maybe it's more of a software issue, or in need of new fluid and a valve body? So far I've checked the fluids, cleaned the copious amounts of college kid detritus out of the interior and ran the shop vac through it.

This car rides so nicely I might be reluctant to flip it - also the heated seats work, and the seats themselves feel like good companions for a long road trip. The car is from Connecticut, but I haven't found any rust worth mentioning. Tomorrow evening I'll climb underneath it to get a better look, though I was already under once to strap it to the trailer and all the suspension components looked pretty clean.

Photo from the ride home, Momo (the yorkie) came along to inspect the Swedish steel:

You might have just scored big! My 2017 Volvo has the same trans shudder on the 3->2 shift.  It's a common issue that goes back to the P2 chassis cars. I'd put fresh trans fluid in it and call it a day.

Pete: Are there any transmissions that CAN survive big HP? I have a line on a 1995 T5-R wagon with a bad trans. It's cheap, and I have big HP dreams for it, but I am just starting to dip my toe into Volvo waters.

In reply to calteg :

I think fresh fluid is where I'll start, I'd like to also hook it up to a scanner and see if the codes say anything specific about the transmission faults. The info on the dash says service transmission soon.

In reply to dannyp84 :

FYI, I believe there's a flag that needs to be reset in the TCM if you change the fluid fully. This can be done with the Volvo DICE/VIDA or with a scanner capable of dealing with the Volvo system.

calteg said:

I have a line on a 1995 T5-R wagon with a bad trans. It's cheap, and I have big HP dreams for it

if you don't want it let me know

In reply to calteg :

As far as swappable? No idea.  The AW55 trans used in everything from four cylinder S40s to five cylinder S80s had a torque rating of something like 350nm.  All Volvo turbo fives with this trans are limited to that, including the first two years of S60R (first and second gear only).  And Nissan Maximas, and turbo SAABs, etc.  259 ft-lb is all you get.

The later TF80 (sixes, eights,  last two years of P2R, and P3s) is limited to 400nm in 1st and 2nd and IIRC 600nm in 3-6.

Swapping may be a pain because of the networking involved, may need to change all sorts of other things.  I know my later P2 is CAN for everything, like the shifter position is a CAN signal from the shifter to the transmission, and the shifter gets its illumination information from a different CAN signal, etc.

As far as manual transmissions go... *shrug emoji*  I have a prejudice against connecting a manual transmission to a turbo engine, so I have no idea.  Supposedly they are stronger... there is someone on swedespeed who claims to have a 650whp P2R, although its quarter mile time/trap speed suggest closer to 500 at the crank.  Still fun, but 650whp should be low tens at 150ish, not twelves in the 130s.

Oh! And at some point the all wheel drive system changed its angle gear ratio. I think 1995 is on the early side of that equation.

I borrowed a Volvo specific scan tool, and the code was TCM-002F, Lock up fuction (slips or does not engage). I drained the fluid and it looks pretty dark but no visible metal shavings or anything like that. Going to try and find the Aisin specific ATF after work today, I'm thinking the Toyota dealer probably has it, there is no Volvo dealer nearby. I'm assuming if that doesn't solve the problem, I might also need to change the 1-2 gear solenoid. Also, there's a code thrown for sunroof malfunction, I was reading up on that and according to my research the alarm (siren?) has a built in battery, and if you let that die, the sunroof won't open. Peculiar. 

In reply to dannyp84 :

Any 3309-compatible transmission fluid should be fine - there are numerous options.

Dexron VI works just fine.  Have used it in many Aisin transmissions.

My TF80 has had Dex 6 for the last 110k miles.  Probably should change it again soon 

If you feel it needs a solenoid, my trans guy has told me that the solenoids either work or they don't, but what does happen commonly is that the bores in the valve body wear out.  Thus the fix of "replace valve body".  Or you might throw new fluid at the problem and it will work just fine.

The AW55 in my S40 would have a shudder/sleaze shift on the 2-3 shift when hot, like trailer towing in the summer hot.  Then it would adapt and be fine until it got cold, and would shudder/sleaze until it adapted again.  It did that for at least 100k miles with no other issues until a deer sent the car to Valhalla.

mr2s2000elise said:

calteg said:

I have a line on a 1995 T5-R wagon with a bad trans. It's cheap, and I have big HP dreams for it

if you don't want it let me know

Sent you a PM

Thats a pretty solid find.

I did the first drain and fill yesterday, it looks like each time you do this, only about 3.5 quarts gets drained, so my plan is to drive it around a bit after draining and filling once, then repeat. Once the car is up to operating temp, the shudder and slip is a lot more noticeable, so during the test drive I've been pretty gentle on the accelerator so as not to break anything mechanical. I have little hope that another flush of the ATF will solve the problem, so I'm keeping an eye out for a decent deal on a trans or valve body.

Is there a way to move this thread to the builds section? I did another drain and fill so that in theory the majority of the ATF is now new, but once up to operating temp, the harsh downshifts and slipping persist. I've found a couple of salvage yards that have the transmission with a 30 day warranty, but I'm thinking it's best to get the transmission out before I buy anything, that way I have plenty of time to get the new trans in and tested during the warranty period. The price of a used transmission is about 1/4th the cost of a new valve body from Volvo, even with a friend's discount. Part of me is tempted to just pull the valve body from another transmission, but I'm thinking that's not a great idea. In the meantime, I sanded and buffed the headlights:

Moved

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Pete, you seem to be the resident Volvo expert here, do you know whether it's best to remove the transmission and engine as one unit rather than separating the trans and dropping it out underneat the car? Also I assume it's easier to drop the subframe and pull everything out from under the car rather than up through the hood?

I can pull the trans from my AWD turbo car out the bottom in 90 minutes.  I got practiced.  No turbo and no AWD makes life a lot easier.  Engine stays in, trans comes out the bottom.

You will need to remove the upper engine torque mount and airbox, then use an engine support cradle kinda device to hold the engine up.  (I assume the battery is under the trunk floor... I have only ever seen one nonturbo P2)  While you have the hood up you can go ahead and remove the forward engine mount to bracket nut, and a small handful of wiring harness to subframe bolts, and probably a ground or two.  Then, you jack it up and disconnect the ball joints, stabilizer links, downpipe support bracket, five rack to subframe bolts, the other torque mount, some clips that hold the fuel lines and evap line, and four bolts drop the subframe out.  Now nothing is holding the drivetrain in.  NOW you remove the axle bolts, pop the axles out of the hubs, two 13mm headed bolts on the carrier bearing, some more bolts for the rear engine mount bracket (leave mount on rack, remove bracket), which gives you access to the torque converter bolts (6), and then support the trans with a cherrypicker, lower engine angle a bit, and remove the rest of the bellhousing bolts and drop the trans out the bottom.

Probably could drop one out in 50min or less, without having to mess with intercooler plumbing, or the angle gear.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Thank you for this brilliantly detailed guide, none of this sounds too bad really. And yes the battery is in the trunk, I'm on the road this weekend but keen to tear into this when I get back.

50 mins or less is an estimate for someone with far better organization and more experience than me. I spent about 4 hours on this last night and got this far:

Nothing was terribly difficult, but it took me a while to figure out where some of the wiring harness lines and clips were located, there's not a lot of space to spot fasteners when you're used to working on an FB RX7. But the power train is free now other than the axles being attached, so hopefully Monday night I'll have the transmission out. Pete your guide was immensely helpful as I wouldn't have spotted the front (pulley side) engine mount if I hadn't known to look for it.

I actually kind of forgot about that one 

I leave the mounts on the subframe, but it's all good, out is out

Well, it's out. The axles really didn't want to pop out of the hubs and the bell housing bolts near the starter are a bit hard to see and get to, but otherwise this wasn't too bad. Now to find a good replacement and hopefully not have to tear it back out during the 30 day warranty period..

I picked up a replacement transmission with a 90 day warranty Saturday, this one allegedly has slightly lower miles (roughly 118k I believe) than the original so hopefully it was maintained well. Do automatics need anything special before installing? For example when doing a clutch I usually grease the input shaft on the transmission before reinstalling. This is the first time I've put an automatic back into a car.

These things are awfully heavy for how compact they are:

I generally make sure the torque converter pilot has some grease on it.  When I put a trans or engine in, I know that the next poor SOB to have to take it apart will appreciate it.

Make sure the dowels are in the engine or the trans but not both or neither, and clean up the dowel holes with a wire brush (plumbing brushes are awesome for this) and glop a little grease there, too.  The next poor SOB will thank you for that, too.

I see your torque converter is out.  100% make sure that the flexplate pads on the converter are deeper into the bellhousing than the flexplate sits away from the engine.  If not, it is not seated fully.  Generally if you can't fit a finger behind a converter, it is seated, I always check with a depth micrometer anyway. And before you fully do up the first two bellhousing bolts, make sure you can spin the converter freely, not that it is wedged in place and getting ready to fracture something.

Or the trans might fall up to the engine first thing, which is eased by items 1 and 2.

Edit: Do yourself a favor and remove the crank sensor, if you have not done so already.  It's easy to mangle when getting the trans close to the engine.