Erich said:In reply to dyintorace :
Thank you for that. I was currently debating selling my i3 to buy a Wrangler, but that helps with the decision.
Certainly apples and oranges, but, in hindsight, I wish we hadn't done so. The Wrangler we bought was a basketcase which didn't help.
In reply to dyintorace :
I would have probably bought a basketcase too 
I really like the i3, but it's being driven less than 100 miles a month, and it's hard to justify given the expensive insurance and registration required here in Michigan.
In reply to tuna55 :
Ok...maybe a first gen Leaf then. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.
I'm talking about a NEW Leaf, but dumbed down just a bit with less 'tech' with a smaller battery. So basically a slightly updated first gen Leaf. Thats what I'm getting at.
and the first gens are quite ugly.
In reply to Erich :
Have you seen the new motor Tesla is putting in that car? Plus they are building their own control units using 48 volt units rather than the common mix of various voltage units that need to be converted. That should gain some efficiency there too.
Elon Musk is betting the house on the new model because that is a 700 million units market.
I suspect that is why GM is going to stop making their Bolt at the end of this year. (95% of their electric market) Reportedly GM was losing $9000 on each Bolt they sold. While Tesla expects to be comfortably profitable.
So, I'll stay out on that 200 mile branch for now. Plus in any case even lower range won't negatively impact its acquisition. Realistically, long trips won't happen.
First gen Leafs looked like some sort of fish :)
Looks like the Fiat 500e is coming to the US, but predictably only the top end model with the biggest battery (42 kWh), longest range (186 miles) and highest cost (€35,000, aka $38,600). And I don't think it'll be eligible for the full rebates. The 272 mile range Model 3 SR starts at $39,990 before rebates right now, you'd have to really want the Fiat to pay a premium for it. Definitely not down to the $15k city car level.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I did some digging- found that most owners are loving the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S as a summer performance tire, and I'm thinking about picking a set up, though if you get them through Tesla they have the dampning pads inside to reduce road noise (they otherwise dont). I'll let you know what Tesla will charge for them.
Doing some comparisons between a Tesla EV motor and a VW EV motor.
Both make their own. Both weigh close to the same 200 pounds ( Tesla is 6 pounds lighter). VW makes 201 horsepower while Tesla's highest version of the same motor makes 384 horsepower.
VW uses the motor in the 3-4-5 series while Tesla uses that motor in the Y series.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
I think my car came from the factory with the Pilot Sport 4, and Tire Rack shows the Tesla OE version. Not sure what the difference between the 4 and 4S is though. The pads could pretty easily be transferred from one set of tires to another. I didn't bother when I mounted the Contis. Hard to tell if it mattered, because I was going from fairly worn tires to full depth so there was a noise level change involved regardless.
It's been interesting looking into the running changes in the Model 3 since we bought ours. They're invisible to most people, but there have been modifications to a huge range of things. Ours is definitely starting to look like an old model when you add them up. It's not enough to make us trade it in - it's actually a better car than it was when I bought it thanks to some software updates - but it's cool to see the evolution.
The most obvious change right now is the pricing. CO has a $2k credit for an EV purchase, that's jumping to $5k on July 1. All of the Model 3s are now eligible for the full federal credit of $7500. There are cars in stock for $38,770 (the single motor RWD). Add that up and you get $26,770 for a new one! That's pretty spectacular.
Purchase price for a car with our spec (dual motor long range, no options but including a mobile charger) is exactly the same as it was when we got ours in Oct 2019. Janel was eyeballing a Model Y in the parking lot pretty hard yesterday, she really would prefer a hatch body style. If we were buying today, we'd probably go that route just for the practicality and because there's no real difference in price at the dual motor LR level. It's dorkier looking than the 3 (amazingly) but you can't see that from the inside.
The car did another trip a few weeks ago. It was unremarkable, other than the fact that Janel drove home from Denver solo as I left in a jet plane. She's still got a little range anxiety but is learning to trust the car. One thing we have learned is how flexible the car's planning is, we don't need to slavishly stick to the programmed stops. Want to stop somewhere else to pee or because there's a good place to eat or because you want to stretch your legs? No worries, the car juggles things for you. At least if you're running down the interstate, it's all taken care of.
The reminder on my phone said "rotate tires on Tesla". Let's see how these new Contis are holding up when I do that next week.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
That's a crazy cheap price! Our daughter in Colorado is thinking she might want a new car, though I was going to point her towards a hybrid. Do you know if the $2k credit would also apply to those?
In reply to 84FSP :
That's very interesting news. I appreciate the effort you took to do a back to back comparison . Thank you.
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
That's a crazy cheap price! Our daughter in Colorado is thinking she might want a new car, though I was going to point her towards a hybrid. Do you know if the $2k credit would also apply to those?
As of July 1 Colorado is $5000 credit on top of the federal $7500 credit.
I've heard from 2 sources but can't find confirmation on California's site.
That California is at $7500 for the state matching the $7500 federal.
I keep reading that 20 states have some sort of subsidy
I doubt ( but don't know ) if the EV credit applies to hybrids. Plus not all EV's get the full $7500 both the batteries and the car have to be made in America*
* there is an exception if the manufacturer certifies the batteries are made or assembled in America with sufficient content they qualify.
Last I saw it depends on the VIN number.
There is also a $3450 credit if a used EV is purchased.
Chevy is due to start releasing the equinox EV with a claimed sell price of $30,000 .
However the batteries in both Chevy's and Fords are the type which have been subject to numerous recalls due to fires.
Tesla's uses a different battery.
In addition the Tesla superchargers have an excellent reputation for reliability whereas independent chargers tend to be both slower and as high as 25% broken.
While some Tesla chargers can be used with Chevy's. An adapter is required.
Price wise the model 2 Tesla will sell for $25,000 so with federal and Colorado credit you are looking at $12,500
it's been introduced in China. But I haven't heard of them coming to the US yet.
The US ones probably will be made in Mexico at the new plant but that isn't due to be operational until 3/4 2024.
I'm only going to address a couple of things there.
The Model 2 - which is likely not what Tesla will call their small car - has not been introduced anywhere in the world. There were some teased details at the last investor day, that's it. Most "information" is fabricated by media outlets that have an audience hungry for news.
The CCS-compatible Superchargers (in the US) have a built-in adapter. Non-Tesla owners don't need to buy one. CCS is used by almost every other EV that can fast charge. Only the newest Superchargers have this capability in the US.
I haven't looked into the details of the CO rebate myself, but as always, go to the source.
https://evco.colorado.gov/whats-new/ev-tax-credit-eligibility
You are right, as usual. The supposed announcement never happened. But there sure is a lot of talk on the subject.
Since I believe that the model2 will perfectly fill our needs, I read anything I can find.
You are right, much of the information was teased during the investors meeting. Making other sources wrong. I learned from the investors day release that the battery will be 50KWH not the 36 I was led to believe. So range should be comfortably over 250 miles ( range doesn't mean anything to us ).
The investor day info is pretty high quality stuff and it does come from Tesla itself, but I find it's better in the fine details ("here's info about the new structural batteries and what it means to production") than high level stuff like product releases. The small car will get released when it's ready (hopefully not before) and not tied to a specific date. The technical evolution is really interesting, though.
There is a Model 3 refresh coming, nicknamed Highland. It's got new headlights and a new front bumper (the latter is now missing the dorky "fish face" grille area), but I have no idea what's under the skin. Maybe it'll be a structural battery and gigapress production, which will drive down the cost of production a fair bit along with some other benefits such as decreased weight. I'm not sure if they're using the gigapress for Model 3 parts already, but it's necessary for the structural battery.
I applaud Tesla's refusal to make annual and pointless aesthetic changes just for the sake of marketing, as that makes it much easier to manage replacement parts for both Tesla and for owners. It's a good long term strategy. But it's why a lot of people assume the cars don't change.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
That's interesting to learn about the Tesla refresh/upgrade processes. Are they planning similar for the model X? It seem those have the worst reviews from owners vs the other Teslas. The Kia EV9 looks promising and my wife was just showing it to me. But, she has a R1S ordered but I'm unsure if she's sold on paying that much. I dont see the EV9 being much cheaper though.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Absolutely! I also love the fact that they do updates on older cars. Like you pointed out.
Plus I really like the advertising, er lack of advertising.
Word of mouth is much more powerful than what some spokes person is paid to say. ( yes I know Elon Musk has bowed to pressure and will "try" some). Maybe on Twitter? ;-)
As long as Elon Musk keeps doing what I consider the "right" thing running his company. By that I mean making the best car possible. I don't care who he supports or what he does.
His SpaceX has saved America what? 80 billion dollars so far this year? Creating a trillion dollar mega battery market.
That American Cars are once more being exported in big numbers because they are a good value!!!
Look at Tesla's market share in Europe. He's outselling Fiat in Italy.
Volvo in Sweden/ Norway. BMW in Germany. And BYD in China ( sometimes)
Not to mention the Tesla' setting of track records in the Nurburgring ( ok, so it's still not settled with Porsche )
Since the Model Y is the number 1 selling car in the world beating out the cheaper Toyota Corolla you wife has good taste.
In reply to yupididit :
I don't know if the X is going to get a major update. The S did fairly recently - not that you'd know for looking at it, but it coincides with the Plaid. The X is, in my opinion, a bit of a lame duck in the lineup. Basically hand-built with troublesome doors. The Y outsells it by a massive margin. I would not be surprised if the X disappeared.
This is just an opinion, it's not based on direct experience.
Can you provide some guidance. Regarding the driver assist!
Does the standard Tesla have hands free type driving assist?
Is the $5500 option some extension of that ? And the $15000 option the autonomous driving system. Or am I wrong?
Standard autopilot basically holds you in the lane. Whenever there is a road and a steering wheel icon pops up, you double pull the right lever on the wheel and it engages. Full self driving takes that approach a step further and will change lanes, stop at lights, and get you to your destination.
Hey gents, I finally found some new shoes for my M3P. 20x11R 20x9F wrapped in new pirelli's in 285/30/20 and 235/35/20 respectively. I did a wh/mile comparison vs stock and was amazed the they did a bit better than stock ~160wh/m vs 172wh/m. Maybe the weight reduction offset the increased rolling resistance?
In reply to frenchyd :
It's hard to keep up with the various feature names. But to start, be aware of the levels of autonomy.
As far as I understand it, all Teslas come with Autopilot which consists of Autosteer (fairly effective lane centering) and Traffic Aware Cruise Control (aka radar cruise, not that different from what's found on many other new cars but with a couple of extra tweaks). I find Autosteer to not be very helpful, as it disengages every time you change lanes and hey, just let you hands follow your eyes. The cruise is useful especially since the EV doesn't have the sense of speed that comes from the almost subliminal engine noise in an ICE. This is Level 2 autonomy.
According to the Tesla website, Enhanced Autopilot adds:
- Navigate on Autopilot
- Auto Lane Change
- Autopark
- Summon
- Smart Summon
Navigate on Autopilot is defined as:
Automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp includes automatic lane changes, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with complete stopping and re-engagement, Autosteer, and overtaking slow cars in your lane.
That's the sort of thing that people might misinterpret as autonomous driving, but isn't. I suspect most of the news stories of Teslas crashing are people assuming Enhanced Autopilot is autonomous, but it's not even certified as Level 3 although the description sounds like it matches. IIRC only Mercedes has approval for a Level 3 system in the US, it can only operate in Nevada and it's not actually available on the market yet. Level 3 is fundamentally flawed because of how humans work, the driver is expected to be ready to retake control at any time, and after a long period of inattention that's not going to happen. There's been a lot of conversation about this after the recent Waymo dog/car accident.
Full Self Driving is the $15k option - although you can also subscribe for $199/mo. It's the future Level 4 system. At some point it will be better (on average) than human drivers in terms of accidents per mile, but at the moment it's somewhere around dodgy Level 3. I have friends who use it, I have no experience with anything past the basic Autosteer/cruise combo.
I would not - did not - spend the money on either as I believe Enhanced Autopilot does not add any significant useful capability over the standard Autopilot and FSD is fundamentally flawed until it reaches full Level 4, as are all Level 3 systems.
84FSP said:Hey gents, I finally found some new shoes for my M3P. 20x11R 20x9F wrapped in new pirelli's in 285/30/20 and 235/35/20 respectively. I did a wh/mile comparison vs stock and was amazed the they did a bit better than stock ~160wh/m vs 172wh/m. Maybe the weight reduction offset the increased rolling resistance?
That's interesting! How did you measure the consumption, in terms of controlling variables? I think the stock Performance tire size is the 235 size you have on (I assume) the front. I can't imagine those wheels are any more aerodynamic than the factory turbines.
I wonder if the decreased tread depth of your worn tires translated into more rolling resistance as it was more difficult for air to escape via the treads? The EU publishes rolling resistance numbers, are your old and new tires both listed?
https://eprel.ec.europa.eu/screen/product/tyres
Update on my own car:
The car of the future still suffers from some of the same problems as other cars. Janel got a low tire pressure warning. She stopped by a gas station to air it up with her nephew watching the TPMS readout as she filled. She got it up over 90 psi before realizing the TPMS only updates when the car is moving - whoops. She then got it down to the recommended 42 psi by bleeding, then driving around a parking lot, then bleeding again.
The next morning, it was down to 28. The screw head sticking out of the tire was a clue. I pulled the screw out (looked like a lath screw), plugged it and we're all good. I also rotated the tires because it was time. I didn't have to reset the TPMS for the tire rotation, but I did learn that you can teach the TPMS a different "correct" pressure if you want. Factory default is 42 psi, but if I decide that 60 psi is what I want I can have it learn that as normal.
The tires look pretty good, but I want to get the alignment checked just because. But Koni finally announced they have stock of the Sport and the Special Active for our 3, so I'm going to poke our Koni rep and see if I can get myself some new shocks. I'll hold off on the alignment until after that, although I know it's a double wishbone in the front at least so it may not be affected.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Hi Keith,
I was pleasently surprised as I was expecting the opposite just due to the 285 vs 235. I ran the test apples to apples on the same stretch of highway from point to point. I ran them within 10deg f of the same temp and used the cruise to hold 70mph. I then compared screen shots of the consumption chart for each.
I discovered another odd thing. I had assumed that the car wasn't traction limited even with the 235's as it just launched in race mode and gave a minimal tire slip in the rear. Oddly it seems to know it has a lot more grip/tire now as it launches the car far harder than before. It now gives me enough power to get it squirrelly off the line which is a fun development.
I'll check the rolling resistance to see what gives there.
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