Keith Tanner said:
We're not planning to build this car for profit anymore, are we. ITBs are fantastic if set up well but are not cheap. They'll cost 10% of the resale value of the car and will make the tuning a lot more difficult than just using a stock ECU. Putting carbs on is announcing to the world that EFI is hard.
Here's what the stock Miata intake manifold looks like in a Locost. I did go to ITBs later because my garage is the sort of place that has them sitting on the shelf, but it wasn't for aesthetics.
Size reference of a non-442 and an SIIa.
You might also add that ITB's cost power! The reason Ferrari, Aston Martin etc don't use them is the are power robbers.
Air has mass. It takes energy getting it moving. On a single cylinder air has to hang around and wait to move until the intake stroke of the engine. Then it's stopped as soon as the intake valve closes and doesn't start up again until the intake valve opens again.
with multiple cylinders that either a lot of start stopping or one butterfly is used and air is continuously drawn in and diverted to the required cylinder.
Yes a straight shot looks cool but it costs horsepower. Besides better to deal with one butterfly than a lot of individual butterflies. Not to mention the complexities of synchronizing all of them.
Keith Tanner said:
4.0 inline six in an XJ? I've got one of those ;)
Ah yes. The supercharged one.! How's it holding up? Could you imagine that in a Lotus 7 replica?
frenchyd said:
Keith Tanner said:
We're not planning to build this car for profit anymore, are we. ITBs are fantastic if set up well but are not cheap. They'll cost 10% of the resale value of the car and will make the tuning a lot more difficult than just using a stock ECU. Putting carbs on is announcing to the world that EFI is hard.
Here's what the stock Miata intake manifold looks like in a Locost. I did go to ITBs later because my garage is the sort of place that has them sitting on the shelf, but it wasn't for aesthetics.
Size reference of a non-442 and an SIIa.
You might also add that ITB's cost power! The reason Ferrari, Aston Martin etc don't use them is the are power robbers.
Air has mass. It takes energy getting it moving. On a single cylinder air has to hang around and wait to move until the intake stroke of the engine. Then it's stopped as soon as the intake valve closes and doesn't start up again until the intake valve opens again.
with multiple cylinders that either a lot of start stopping or one butterfly is used and air is continuously drawn in and diverted to the required cylinder.
Yes a straight shot looks cool but it costs horsepower. Besides better to deal with one butterfly than a lot of individual butterflies. Not to mention the complexities of synchronizing all of them.
My dyno testing disagrees with your assertions. Every time I've done it, I've picked up horsepower gains and throttle response. And noise. On the Locost engine, it went from 134 hp at the wheels to 146 and was still climbing when I stopped the run at 7300 rpm. I don't have "before" charts, unfortunately. Here's the after.
2.0 Miata engine, modified stock intake versus ITBs. Yes, this engine has a weird shape to the power curve that was due to the cams but it's a straight A/B test. Dyno chart.
My E39 M5 seems to do okay as well.
frenchyd said:
Keith Tanner said:
4.0 inline six in an XJ? I've got one of those ;)
Ah yes. The supercharged one.! How's it holding up? Could you imagine that in a Lotus 7 replica?
Not supercharged. It's holding up okay, although I have my doubts about the power levels you mentioned.
Berk IT! Put a Hellcat in it.
Or a flathead.
RichardSIA said:
ITB's/Webers costing HP flies in the face of decades of racing history. The air/fuel colum MAY be interrupted (Reversion), but being so much smaller/lighter and more direct it has a LOT less mass to accelerate.
Even my El Camino SBC 327 is getting Webers!
They tend to increase peak power, but power under the curve can suffer. So they work for engines that run in narrow RPM ranges, but not necessarily those that see a wider RPM range.
Also in the past, intake solutions were laughable at best, so webers were improvements over tiny 2-bbl carbs and/or poorly flowing intakes. Modern engines rarely see such large gains from intake improvements due to improved engineering and design.
While there may be other factors at play, I had noticeably more mid-range torque in the 4AGE in my Locost going from factory EFI to ITBs. I did not notice a significant change in top end. Not that it has a lot of power to begin with, it's all stock inside.
Do the Buick V6 only if you can build a set of zoomie headier for it. Think about that view from the driver's seat!
I keep coming back to the (buick) Rover V8 with compression and cam...
If you put anything with a turbo or over 2.0L it puts you in E Mod without a prayer of beating anything in that class.
I had my Mini out for AutoX this weekend and got beat by a Crown Vic, very humbling! (and one fast CV!)
In reply to RichardSIA :
If the plan is to sell it eventually, why wait? Sell it now to someone who is fine with using the engine it was set up for. It sounds like you have plenty of projects already - especially with the Europa coming soon. Then build the LoCost you want to build when you're more ready.
In reply to RichardSIA :
Maybe it's just me staring at my own overwhelming number of projects (that I don't plan to sell when done), but it seems to me that "profit" right now would be getting it out of the shop for what you paid for it. Add that to the fact you're hoping to make money on a build that historically loses money and I'm still wondering why you are proceeding with this plan. A couple of items break and bam - there goes any hope for profit.
Sorry if this horse has been beat to death or if you've already come to some decision. I was just scanning the thread really. The LFX v6 engines + trans weigh the same as the miata BP engines but also make 300+ hp and have a similar form factor (since, you know, they go into miata easily) and sound fantastic. They seem overkill for a locost, and I think the intake height is a bit taller, but they are fairly plentiful, and fairly cheap especially given how under-stressed they are in small cars (since they come from big ol' cheby's etc). You could probably find a crashed camaro and maybe turn a profit on the part-out?
They're found in modern Camaros. Like, made in the last decade. They come attached to 6-speeds. They also have technology like overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder, variable valve timing and direct injection. If you think EFI is overblown, you may want to back away.
They are definitely taller than a Miata engine.
RichardSIA said:
Apparently I am now a "Flat earther" when if comes to overblown tech, how hard to convert those V6's to carb? 
IF they are to found in Camaro's that would hopefully mean a 5-speed would be available.
Not a flat earther, you acknowledge the scientific truth of things like overhead cams, EFI, variable cam/valve tech, etc. You're a Luddite since you choose to eschew technology because you choose to not understand it.
Your choice, obviously, and as long as you're happy with it, knock yourself out. I mean even Frenchy, one of our resident curmudgeons is actually trying to understand EFI so he can convert one of his V12's to EFI so it can run E85 and turbos.
RichardSIA said:
Apparently I am now a "Flat earther" when if comes to overblown tech, how hard to convert those V6's to carb? IF they are to found in Camaro's that would hopefully mean a 5-speed would be available.
Lol, I understand the "flat-earther" impulses in our day and age of technology, I get overwhelmed sometimes just dealing with Megasquirt or the like (and I work in software!). I believe they have a well known/reliable standalone wiring harness + ecu options. LFXs are being shoved in a lot of cars since they're incredibly light for their size + power , a well matched transmission that just bolts on, and are easily packaged. It has integrated headers - you just have to route the single runner into your exhaust. Probably not the right choice for this project, but fairly similar to what they do with the stalker lotus-7-esque cars that get the 3800 v6, but a much better engine (they may already be putting these in stalkers, not sure). http://stalkercars.com/kits/
An NB miata with insane aero and an LFX motor just won TTN @ NCM over some SERIOUS horsepower/big money cars. Not to say there isn't a ton of money in it's development, but it's insane how far above it's weight it was punching HP-wise, we're talking Mclaren's with 900hp, etc on what IS a power-is-king track.
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:
RichardSIA said:
Apparently I am now a "Flat earther" when if comes to overblown tech, how hard to convert those V6's to carb? IF they are to found in Camaro's that would hopefully mean a 5-speed would be available.
Not a flat earther, you acknowledge the scientific truth of things like overhead cams, EFI, variable cam/valve tech, etc. You're a Luddite since you choose to eschew technology because you choose to not understand it.
Your choice, obviously, and as long as you're happy with it, knock yourself out. I mean even Frenchy, one of our resident curmudgeons is actually trying to understand EFI so he can convert one of his V12's to EFI so it can run E85 and turbos.
Thank you for the promotion. I used to be a Luddite and now I'm promoted to curmudgeon? Well I guess since I believe camshafts should be on top of valves I might not be a real flat earther but I understand carbs and I'm only slowly learning about EFI I guess I'm a semi flat earther, semi Luddite and a real curmudgeon.
I believe the new ones all have integrated bellhousings. you probably want a T5, which came in Ford or GM flavor, and had a bolt-on bell. Steel scatter shields available too from places like quicktime. I'm sure someone makes an adapter bell for a T5 to BOP 215.
I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to suggest another cool V6. https://www.rocketworkscars.com/the-engine
Going out on a limb here: nailhead Buick (with the cam in the block where it was intended). Because the original “lowcost” Old Yeller used one.
Yeah I know. That wasn’t a Lotus 7 variant. But it was a car built from scratch in a garage for not much money from junkyard parts and it pounded on Ferrari’s and Masers. So there is that. True Grassroots.
In reply to RichardSIA :
There are a lot of engines available but few manual transmissions. If you want to use a manual tranny ( and I understand the appeal ) you need to learn how to adapt any engine to any transmission .
fundamentally it requires a spare empty block and a spare empty transmission plus its bellhousing.
you first need a straight solid rod. At least an inch thick and 2 inches is better. ( in a pinch I've used tubing). Easy way to check if its really straight is find a big piece of glass and roll it. Lacking the glass a billiard table will do.
measure the block main journals and have 2 hockey pucks made. The outside diameter is the main journals. ( note; not the crank pin size, the actual journals) and the inside diameter is the rod ( or tube )
Next measure the diameter of the front bearing and the rear bearings on the transmission
slide everything in place and figure out where to put them. The picture shows what I did to adapt a JaguarV12 to a Saenz ( racing dog ring) transmission.
The first spacer is the Bell housing adaptor. next to it you can see the ATF ring gear I used so the stock starter would work. The aluminum disk is a triple disk flywheel. The Bell Housing is a Tilton SFI and the adaptor on the back is useable for either a GM 4 speed or the Seinz. 
In reply to frenchyd :
The exact thickness of each adapter is a simple matter of measurement.
once you're set up to do one any other tranny engine combo is the same principle different measurements.
In reply to RichardSIA :
You want really outside the box thinking? It's 24 inches tall from the bottom of the pan to the top of the manifold Uses 4 lawnmower simple but big carburators. 21 inches wide (add an inch and a 1/2 on each side for exhaust manifolds). But••••34 inches long to the front of the water pump.
A Rover V8 could be a good option and shouldn't be too hard to make work. The engine seems to be the easy part and I believe adapters for T-5 or T-9 transmissions are out there. The bell house and flywheel may be on the pricey side, but they're out there. I'd suggest digging in the TR8 world.
What are the chances you could find an F-85 to put that 215 turbo motor into and build a Jetfire clone? I realize that the Jetfire body was a special one-off hardtop that would be beyond the scope of most anyone to build up in 2020, but.. this doesn't at all sound like a locost7 motor.
I'd almost want to find a way to spit & polish the thing a bit and sell it on to some collector that's wanting a spare motor or their own project.
I believe 13" is actually more appropriate.
