Making an L body handle - Shelby Charger content

turboswede wrote: In reply to jstein77: It wasn't Renault, it was SIMCA which later became Chrylser Europe. The first Omni's and Horizon's had 1.7 VW engines (with 2-bbl carbs) or Peugot 1.6L pushrod motors. That was due to the 2.2 not being ready yet and because AMC had a working relationship with VW/Audi (from when they bought 2.0L engines for the Gremlin/Pacer). Actually knew a local guy that built a 1.7L powered Horizon with VW performance parts (1.8 GTi engine, 020 5-speed, etc.) gave my Uncle's 2.2 GLH a run for its money as they were both prepped for SP autocross.

Fuuny thing, the car I learned to drive stick on was one of the VW powered Omnis. It was a factory screw up and had and Omni badge on one side and a Horizon on the other. That car was a BLAST to drive. Light and handled great while lifting inside rears on hard corners. Even though it had the 85mph speedo it didn't have a pin so you could wrap the needle around and under, across the "MPH" and back up to the 0. If I remember correctly ours was a 4 speed, not a 5.

Yeah, they all were 4-speeds with the 1.7 and the 1.6. The 2.2 had a 5-speed from 83.5-on.

My grandparents had a 1.7 powered Horizon, powder blue and powder blue vinyl interior. Dad melted the original 1.7 down and replaced it with one from a Rabbit. It was an auto though, but very light.

At the time my grandparents had their Horizon (puddle jumper as it was called), one of my Uncle's had an 83-1/2 Shelby Charger, the other an 84 GLH and my older brother had an 86 Shelby Charger Turbo. Later my brother bought an 86 GLH-S and eventually his Shelby Charger went to my Dad to replace his Ford Capri. I bought my 87 CSX not long afterward once I started driving and then an 87 Shelby Charger and an 86 GLH-T before selling them both off and getting an 84 Rampage. There was a couple of Turbo Shadow's and Daytona Shelby Z's in there as well. Now the only FWD dodge's from that era in the family are my Uncle's 84 GLH, his 88 CSX-T and my Dad's 89 Turbo Caravan ES.

Still want to build a 2.2/2.5 RWD car. Might have to be a Locost style project or maybe even a Cobra replica, because I want to mix the best parts of Shelby's history together and mess with the "purists" a bit :)

Good luck on the project and if you need any help with anything, don't hesitate to ask!

Brock2 wrote: Vigo/Virgo, sorry. And the early Rabbit sway bars will work in the Chargers but again, I would touch the front bar until you have too much oversteer, if that can happen. ;-)

So for a relatively low speed autocross (1-3 gear) set up would you recommend disconnecting the front bar or just leaving alone? Also, on the rear bar do you have any pictures of this set up? I have access to a pipe bender so we can make up a custom bar fairly easily.

In reply to turboswede:

Man that is a LOT of TD for one family. Hope you had stock in Chrysler.

I just found a used 2G SRT-4 setup with Eibach springs fairly close. Emailed the seller to see if they are still available. Based on the thread below this doesn't seem to crazy a swap.

http://boostedmopar.com/forums/showthread.php?2845-How-To-Neon-Struts-on-a-L-Body

BTW, I WILL be getting in touch with you when I start adjusting the shift linkage.

One issue I also know I have is a hot start problem. I am tending to think it is a wiring issue with the injectors as all that wiring is incredibly brittle.

When you come asking questions about how to make your L body handle on a $0 budget and get multiple replies from Brock on how to do exactly that, you know you're in the right place.

That's all. I'm watching with interest to see how it turns out.

hobiercr, until you decide on what avenues to take, try the autocross with the front bar attached and then with it disconnected. If I'm not mistaken, you can take the bolt out of one side, not both, to render it useless and the bar will not interfere with anything important underneath, but as a disclaimer, check to make sure. I'd set the alignment for as much negative camber as you can get, again, adjust the toe to a little toe-out and see what happens.
Not to sound pedantic, with the TTO in play, brake in a straight line, start your turn-in and as the rear steps out, start applying throttle pulling you through the corner. If the car is pushing, no amount of throttle will work until the front tires are working. I can get you pictures of the rear bar but not for several days as I'm going out of town for a while.

I will go that route. There should not be a problem with disconnecting just one end as I used to do the same thing on my HP Mazda GLC for wet conditions (but the rear/not front). I plan to set the camber to -2 if poss, 1/4 toe out up front and 1/8 toe in on rear to start with.

No rush on the picture as this thing won't make it into the shop for another week as there are other projects I've got to finish first.

Not sure how well it would work to disconnect just one end since it can still push up on the control arm. It isn't too hard to remove the rest of the bolts and drop it from the bottom. I'd probably clean the threads on the outboard bolts before removing the nuts as they like to get crusty with dirt and rust. The bolts in the middle tend to be coated in oil from the valve cover and/or power steering, etc. :)

turboswede is probably right, I didn't think of the bar working against the bushings on one side.

Thanks for the detailed info on the setup, Brock2.

I don't have direct experience autocrossing L-bodies per se but the k-cars have pretty much an identical front suspension and identical spring rates and similar weight in some cases, and i HAVE done a lot of spirited cornering and some autocross in k-cars. My experience leads me to believe that if you disconnect the front sway bar on stock GLHS spring rates you will have ungodly amounts of body roll with any real traction. I frankly don't know if its possible to make the front have less roll stiffness than the stock rear and suspect an attempt to do so is sort of a 'race to the bottom'. I humbly suspect that it will be more productive to try stiffening the rear and leaving the front alone as a first mod.

But, im open to being proven wrong and would like to hear back if OP decides to try it.

Vigo, he was looking for cheap ways to make the car handle which is why I first suggested disconnecting the front bar. You are certainly correct that a better step would be stiffening the rear, more rear springs and a much bigger bar.

Update: Finally cleared a spot in the shop and with the help of Matt from Hong got the Charger off the trailer and into the shop. She'll turnover with a battery but don't seem to be getting any spark or fuel pump. Initially the fuel pump kicked in about 4 times but then no sound before or during the cranking. Time to do some investigative work. At least it is in the garage.

New shift linkage going in this weekend and then onto electrical hell.

hobiercr wrote: Update: Finally cleared a spot in the shop and with the help of Matt from Hong got the Charger off the trailer and into the shop. She'll turnover with a battery but don't seem to be getting any spark or fuel pump. Initially the fuel pump kicked in about 4 times but then no sound before or during the cranking. Time to do some investigative work. At least it is in the garage. New shift linkage going in this weekend and then onto electrical hell.

If you have no fuel pump and no spark, swapmout the distributor hall effect pick up. Ifnthat doesn't work, check the auto shut down relay. Either could cause the loss of both fuel pump and spark.

The thing I see against disconnecting the front bar is that it will let the car roll more, reducing the camber on the outside wheel, which will contribute to understeer. Stiffen the hell out of the rear, through bars or springs. Reducing roll on strut suspension is essential. Did I read somewhere that some one was going to make a bar from pipe ?

In reply to iceracer:

I made one from flat steel bar stock, clamped to the center crossbar with muffler clamps. Works pretty well and is adjustable.

Others have stitch welded the bar in place, but that's only if you're sure that it is stiff enough.

If you have no fuel pump and no spark, swapmout the distributor hall effect pick up. Ifnthat doesn't work, check the auto shut down relay. Either could cause the loss of both fuel pump and spark.

Wait! Me being as cheap as i am, i insist on pinching the pennies present on the car before spending more pennies!

If you have a test light or a voltmeter, here's a simple check: Poke the positive coil terminal with your instrument and see if there is voltage while cranking. The power to the fuel pump, fuel injectors, and coils all comes from the same place, the ASD relay, and the ASD relay turns on anytime the computer sees RPM from the distributor pick up.

So, if you have ~12v at the coil positive while cranking, the hall effect is good and the computer is turning on the ASD relay. That just means you dont have to replace either the pickup or the relay. It doesn't mean the fuel pump is getting power (it's on the same circuit, but there could be a wiring problem back that way), or ground. You have to get back there and check to make sure. Pro-tip #2: You can use a jumper wire from batt positive to coil positive to energize the fuel pump circuit for testing. That way you dont have to crank while checking for power at the pump.

If you DONT get 12v at the coil positive during cranking, you could have a problem with the hall effect or ASD. Does the tachometer move while cranking? If not, that would anecdotally point towards the hall effect pickup. It may also give you a code 11 through the check engine light: http://www.allpar.com/fix/80s-codes.html

Vigo, Thank you. I will run this diagnostic first and see what shows up. I have the manual for the car but where is the ASD relay located?

Tswede, do you have any pictures of your rear crossbar? What thickness flat bar stock did you use?

The wiring in the engine compartment is a travesty with lots of lose wires, jumpers, etc. but it did run and drive so I don't think it is too far out. Can a HES be intermittent or be affected by heat? When the car was running before it would always fire cold but as soon as it got a little warmed up it would crank but not fire.

Here's the K-car version:

The L-body would be shorter.

I think I used 3/16" but I'd get a few pieces in different thicknesses to tailor it to your driving style. You can also stack them if you need more.

The L-body has a totally different rear torsion beam design than the K-car.

Hopefully pat will jump back in on that one as he definitely knows how to build a diy rear swaybar and definitely owns/owned an L-body. I've never kept an l-body around long enough to do anything to it so i'm pretty useless on the finer points of DIY rear roll-bar on those.

Ok, more info on the non-start issue. I'm getting power at the coil + terminal when I initially turn the key to start, the car turns over and tries to fire and then I lose the power at the coil + terminal. If I cycle the key (all the way off, then back on) it will do the same thing. Still an HES issue?

Could be either the HEP or the ASD relay or something involved with the ASD relay. I dont know where the relay is on that car.

Does your tach move when the engine cranks? Did you check for codes through the check engine light?

Um, yeah, about that tach... Tach does not work, never has and I've tried to pull codes before but no flashing lights so I'm kinda SOL there. I vaguely remember that the car may have come with another HES. Good/bad, who knows? I'll throw it in and see if anything changes.

Pull the cluster and solder the riveted connections to the board. That should solve that problem. Replace the bulbs while you're there.

turboswede wrote: Pull the cluster and solder the riveted connections to the board. That should solve that problem. Replace the bulbs while you're there.

I will do that as soon as we get her running.

Got some time on the car tonight. The Hong's electronic guru Matt has been helping work through the electronic issue and he systematically ran through tests to get to the bottom of the non-start issue.

First, we pulled off the hood.

Then we swapped out the HES with one of the 2 extra that came with the car. No change to the issue. We were getting spark at the plugs so the next things we looked at was fuel. The car sounded like it wanted to start but just couldn't get there. We checked the ground for both circuits at the power module with a test light and all seemed good. It totally helped having this.

Matt whipped up and LED test light with a resistor and we checked the ground pulse on each circuit. With both circuits the LED was lit when we initially turned the key to the start position but when we tested the circuits individually the white circuit showed a pulsing signal during cranking but the brown circuit did not. At this point, from what we can determine, the power module is faulty.

It's potted so digging in to repair it probably is out of the question. Based on what we found through testing does anyone have any other thoughts on what we could test? Concurrently, does anyone have a power module that I could borrow/use to test our diagnosis?

want another one for the fleet?

http://fargo.craigslist.org/ptd/4139541142.html