In reply to The0retical :
Thanks for that- I sent him a message. I'll report back.
damen
In reply to The0retical :
Thanks for that- I sent him a message. I'll report back.
damen
Consider messaging your local tuners too- the local scene typically sticks to one standalone based around one person who REALLY knows their stuff, so unless you understand and know how to work with both I'd cover my butt that way too.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
I, too, thought that would be a good idea. Unfortunately, so far I haven't had very good luck. One (reputable, heavily recommended) shop said they're too busy to help me right now; my application is going to require some deep thinking. The second shop I talked to said they're not comfortable with my project, then recommended me to another shop that only does MoTec. I'd love MoTec, but I don't want to spend that much. The Nissan specific shop I talked to uses Nistune and Uprev, which are programs that run on the stock ECU. Being in the middle of Houston, I have the benefit of many shops, but it is a bit overwhelming to try to consult them all. It also means that there isn't really ONE person that is the go-to, at least from what I've found. It feels a bit like being in the toothpaste aisle; no obvious choice. Then again, it may be that I've just fallen short on my research.
I've looked at number of standalone solutions, but the AEM Infinity seems to have everything I want, in one package, including dual lambda controllers and dual drive-by-wire. I'd like to not have (a) separate controller(s) to wire into the ECU, like an Innovate into a MegaSquirt or Haltech.
So I emailed AEM directly to ask about which harness to get with which ECU, and after a little back and forth, here's their response:
Since I am not familiar with your application and it being currently unsupported, my best suggestion would be to take a look at the instructions for both of these harnesses and decide from there which would suite your needs better.
It's looking like I might be on my own here. This motor swap has a bit of a reputation for not being a beginner's project. I knew that going in, so I'm not totally shocked by all this. I am a bit surprised that none of these dealers or local shops want my money too badly, though. Or maybe I'm just underestimating how much of a headache this is.
Either way, we'll find out.
damen
Friend of mine has an AEM Infinity for sale. It was in his E46 M3, then SCCA changed the rules on him and he had to go back to the stock ECU. Let me know if you want his contact info.
Honestly, I'm not sure you should worry too much about having to wire separate wideband controllers into the ECU. It's really not that big of a deal, and the only real downside I see is packaging, but there's always places to stuff stuff. I could be wrong of course, but I wired in an AEM wideband to my MegaSquirt last week and it was pretty easy. As long as the ECU supports dual wideband inputs, there shouldn't be any issue. The AEM wideband was also nice because the wiring all went into the gauge, no separate controller "brick".
What's the dual drive by wire for?
In reply to docwyte :
Sweet! PM sent- thanks
Edit: My message bounced, but I am definitely interested in your friends Infinity. Please have him message me at damen (dot) hattori (at) gmail. Thanks!
In reply to AWSX1686 :
I understand your point. I am concerned about packaging in-so-far as I would love to minimize extra boxes and controllers if I can. It just so happens that the Infinity option allows that, so I dig it. Plus a dual wideband controller is pretty $$. Does MS support dual wideband? It's not clear to me on their site and I haven't heard back from @madscientistmatt.
Dual drive by wire is for two dbw throttle bodies :) Admittedly an exotic setup which I won't be using for the first go-round here, but it's another distinguishing characteristic, so I thought I'd list it. Sorry for the confusion.
I'm hoping to run some sort of digital dash which will cover me in the gauge department.
damen
If you could get the car to run on a stock ecu/harness you would probably find more people interested in working on it.
Starting from scratch is daunting without some experience with a particular engine family.
The learning curve is a lot shorter if you start with a complete/running stock setup.
In reply to badwaytolive :
Gotcha. I'd still consider doing AEM wideband controllers into the ECU. They have the controller build into the gauge so packaging is easy, and then you have a real gauge for one of you most important items as well as the reading on the computer.
No idea on dual DBW throttle bodies, personally I like cable drive.
And for you digital dash, I think it's a good idea. If you go with an MS3 it's pretty easy to do with a raspberry pi for probably just over $100. I haven't done one myself yet, but I plan to. Let me find the link....
There was another link that had more details of how to do it, but I can't find it at the moment. This one is still helpful though. https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/diy-raspberry-pi-racedash-92851/
In reply to badwaytolive :
Yeah, my account here is kinda messed up. I've brought it to the webmasters attention but no action so far. I've sent him your info...
Crackers said:If you could get the car to run on a stock ecu/harness you would probably find more people interested in working on it.
Starting from scratch is daunting without some experience with a particular engine family.
The learning curve is a lot shorter if you start with a complete/running stock setup.
I believe that for sure.
The stock setup is compromised in a number of ways. The most egregious is the crank trigger setup. The trigger wheel is a big notched pie plate attached to the flex plate on the back of the engine. You can see it here:
It feeds to a magnetic pickup sensor that lives inside the bellhousing of the stock transmission, which is an automatic, which I'm not interested in installing.
Now, there does exist an adapter (from Z Fever racing in Florida) to accommodate the stock trigger setup with a CD009 ('05 - '06 350Z/G35) 6-spd manual installed on the VK56 (which is what I'm going to try to use). However, it involves keeping the stock flexplate, sawing off the front of the CD009, milling it flat, bolting up the VK56 auto bellhousing, and adding a full 350Z flywheel/clutch.
Then you're set to use the very finicky stock trigger setup.
The SR Motorsports guys had persistent problems with this trigger setup in Ryan Kado's VK56 350Z drift car; the sensor has to be incredibly close (they were grinding washers in half because a full washer put it too far away from the notched wheel), and is susceptible/prone to vibrating loose and moving. They had to ditch that setup completely and move to a custom crank-pulley-mounted magnetic wheel solution to get the car running reliably.
I'll be doing a 60-2 (aka GM 58X) toothed wheel on the crank pulley with a Hall effect sensor.
I will try to get the engine running on a test stand with the fully stock setup (except for the new crank trigger). If I can't do that, well, I'm not sure where I'll go from there, to be honest.
damen
In reply to AWSX1686 :
I agree, those gauges are super slick. There doesn't appear to be a dual-controller version of the gauge; I really like the idea of having AFR for each bank. The nice thing about running this stuff into a digital dash vs a gauge is the ability to set alarms. Counting on myself to be looking at a gauge at the exact moment there is a problem is not a recipe for success. The whole dash going red the instant there is a problem is much more likely to result in a positive outcome.
I haven't actually thought about whether I'll be doing DBW or cable. I greatly prefer the idea of DBW routing from the pedal to the throttle body(ies), but I haven't nailed down the intake setup yet.
A $100 digital dash solution sounds pretty amazing. I look forward to seeing your implementation.
Thanks to you and everyone for contributing to this thread- I really appreciate your time given to help me out!
damen
In reply to docwyte :
Excellent, thanks for that-
In reply to AWSX1686 :
Very nice.
I take it you are advocating for MS?
Shout-out to @docwyte for connecting me with his E46/S54/AEM friend. While the ECU he is selling is not a good fit for me, he's been very helpful answering the questions I've mentioned in this thread. Much more helpful than the ECU companies themselves!
damen
In reply to badwaytolive :
All I know is MS, so that's all I can give any input on, and even then I am still pretty new to MS. It seems like the MS3 is pretty cheap (compared to other options at least) and has a LOT of capabilities, and from what I've heard, MS in general has a lot of support because so many people use it. From my limited experience MS is usually the first option for DIY. That's just my $.02, take it as you will. Like I said, I'm not an expert. I think it does make sense to get the engine running on the stand on the stock ECU first though, if possible.
While you're looking you can also check out FreeEMS. (http://freeems.org/) I believe it was Fred who was at the challenge last year who I talked to, he did most if not all of the development for this. He's on this forum too, I just don't remember his username off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure tuning for these uses TunerStudio, just like a MS would. I believe you have to build the board yourself, so it's a lot more hands on DIY, but can be super cheap. ( I want to say the components needed to build the board are total under $30.) When I talked to him at the challenge I honestly didn't have enough of a grasp on the concept of standalone ECUs to appreciate it, but now that I have a better grasp on the idea I may look into it more for my next project.
Pretty sure TheV8Kid has documented his success with Speeduino but can't find the thread.
In reply to AWSX1686 :
Whoa that FreeEMS looks like some serious DIY. To be perfectly honest, engine control is not one of the areas of this project that I'm super interested in. I just want it to work. After months of research, I'm fairly well settled on the Infinity. MS3 looks very powerful and flexible, but it also looks a lot more involved to extract features from. I'm sure I could save substantial money with MS, but I think it will take more of my time, which is my most valuable asset at the moment.
Then again, literally every single one of my assumptions could be wrong and I could be making the wrong decision.
I guess we'll try it out, document here, and hope it helps the next person faced with this decision.
Thanks again for your input.
damen
I definitely understand. Time is the hardest thing to come by sometimes. The project is going to take a lot, so if you can afford it and that will save you time, go for it. I don't see any reason that it would be a "bad choice" other than you might have been able to do it cheaper. If it's got the capabilities you need, and will get you going sooner, awesome. Good luck, I can't wait to see how it works out!
dherr said:Pretty sure TheV8Kid has documented his success with Speeduino but can't find the thread.
Thanks for the lead.
It looks like he has summarized his experience here: TheV8Kid-Speeduino
When asked if anyone has tried a Speeduino, he replies:
I have. I was not able to get it to work very well. I was trying to put it on to an LS engine. I could hook a signal generator to it on the bench, and it would work great. As soon as I hooked it to the car, it would not recognize the crank signal.
I recently fixed an issue where the voltage drops pretty low when cranking. I might try it again. It can be put together CHEAP.
Anyway, for a V8 it would be wasted-spark and batch-injection, which I don't want.
damen
In reply to AWSX1686 :
Much appreciated, Andrew, cheers!
I've spent some time trying to research "Best Practices" and "Gold Standards" for auto and motorsports wiring harnesses. I'd consider myself a bit of a wiring enthusiast, so it's relevant to my interests.
I stumbled my way to this page:
I can't believe the amount of information and links the guys at RB Racing put into this free resource; I actually emailed them thank you.
Now, because I have precisely zero relevant experience in this arena (unless you count the time in college when I wired up a dash full of gauges using all white wire and masking tape/sharpie labels; ack!), I can't rule whether or not this is actually the "best way" (if that even exists). However, I am extremely excited to have found it and I look forward to incorporating at some of these (what look like) awesome methods.
I hope you, too, find this to be conclusively rad.
damen
In reply to badwaytolive :
Man you car only guys are spoiled by having different colored wires. 
For a while my life revolved around doing things similar to that Airbus photo in the article. Just bundles of white wires that the sheet metal beaters or composite guys would sometimes cut the entire bundle in half because they couldn't be bothered to look under the skin.
The best method I've found (If you don't want to run around collecting 50 different colored wires) is to print a label and shrink wrap it to the wire like we do in aerospace. Or if you're fancy there's a laser setup that'll burn it into the insulator over set increments which makes tracing the wire way easier.
Then document, and document, and document, and document. Then take a photo and send it to the cloud.
Edit: I should point out, and this is mostly common sense, that if you're going to pot the backs of the connectors either put in the correct firewall pass through connectors for cannon plugs with shorter runs, or do it sparingly.
Nothing sucks worse than using a heat gun to loosen up sealant and push out a bent or broken pin from a cannon plug then finding out you need to re-run the wire because it's now too short to repin.
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