Porsche 917/10 Can Am Replica, Lemans 917 and F1 for the street

In reply to carwhisperer: Have you ever designed and built a car, any car from scratch let along a Formula one car or, my god, a twelve cylinder Porsche 917? Do you have any idea the cost of materials? The garage space cost? The tools and equipment needed. And the YEARS of labor involved? I should be doubling all those prices. I'm giving them away at cost. Six years of labor down the drain. I found a guy with a brain who might be able to wire the Can Am Car for the street so you can all kiss that one goodbye if that comes about.

It's only worth what someone is willing to pay unfortunately. It's no different of a situation than the guy who thinks he can get $50k for his Pontiac Fierallardo.

You're priced to compete with a COMPLETE Superformance GT40.

Jack2052 wrote: In reply to carwhisperer: Have you ever designed and built a car, any car from scratch let along a Formula one car or, my god, a twelve cylinder Porsche 917? Do you have any idea the cost of materials? The garage space cost? The tools and equipment needed. And the YEARS of labor involved? I should be doubling all those prices. I'm giving them away at cost. Six years of labor down the drain. I found a guy with a brain who might be able to wire the Can Am Car for the street so you can all kiss that one goodbye if that comes about.

No, I can't say I've done exactly those things. But I have done 12 major drive train conversions. Amazingly, I've made money on pretty much every one. That's after counting all costs, such as parts, registration, insurance, etc. But I keep my expenses cut to the bone and never pay anyone else to do anything. OTOH, I've probably worked for an average of $5/hour. And I don't do it to make money. I have flipped a lot of "normal" classic cars, and that has made me some money. But the difference between what a runner and non runner bring is huge.

As earlier stated, the fact that neither car can be driven at this time is a big problem to getting the kind of money you are asking. Here are a couple more questions that come to mind:

1. Is the crank snout on the rear of the two subaru engines strong enough to transmit that engine's power to the next crank? Look at the difference between the flywheel end of the crank (6 bolts?) vs. the front pulley end (one bolt and a key?).

2. I am not sure what the standards are for a replica but I think two air cooled 911 engines would have been way better.

3. I think writing Ford on the Northstar engine is just weird.

Items 2 and 3 seem like strange choices for someone as obviously talented as you.

Again, I praise your talent and skills. You are a better car builder than me. But you did post about your cars on a forum so I am commenting.

Having said that, I wish you the best!

In reply to Mazda787b: You obviously haven't priced a Superformance GT-40!

In reply to carwhisperer:

1. That's 6 bolts vs one heavy bolt with Red Loctite and 4 cap cover bolts. Both engines will be firing one cylinder at the same time on opposite sides. There will be no, or minimal torque on the connection. This car is meant for street or mild track day work, not the Can Am Series. I found a Subaru expert in LA that is developing a way to run one of these Subaru engines and the Sport Shift Transmission using the OEM ECU and TCU.

2. Porsche engines are longer and cost at least 3 to 4 times as much. These engines were designed by Porsche and have 4 valves per cylinder. I was able to keep the wheelbase to within 1.5" of the original car using these engines.

3. Formula one cars were never run with Northstar engines. I wanted twin cams so I could put FORD on them to make it look like a FORD DFV Grand Prix engine. That's FUN and does make sense.

In reply to wearymicrobe: Yes but, they will have a 6 cylinder Porsche engine sitting in a 12 cylinder engine bay. I don't think I could open the engine cover with people standing around me.

It's not a formula 1 car.

Stop calling it that.

It's not even remotely one.

At least the 917 replica has a similar chassis to the original.

I have two ideas for engine management.

1. You could use two subaru ecu's. Ferrari used two Motronic ecu's on the 89-95 348, one for each bank of 4 cylinders. There are two fuel pumps, two crank triggers, two iacv's, two of almost everything. You can start and run the engine on only one bank. The engine management really wasn't synchronized. Of course the engine was with the crank and timing belt. That engine uses a flat plane crank, which I don't think is really germane to the issue at hand.

2. My second idea is megasquirt, a stand alone engine management system. You can build it up with your own motherboard or you can buy one that is already built. You have probably heard of it. I have never personally used it, but I've hear it is extremely versatile.

I still think you are going to have trouble with that crank connection. Even though you say it is one firing pulse at a time it is still the full amount of horsepower of that one engine going through that connection. Have you looked at how people have coupled multiple engines for dragsters and sled pullers? Neither have I, haha. But I'll bet it's not relying on the mounting system for the front engine pulley. The front pulley of an engine delivers maybe 20hp for the water pump, AC compressor, power steering, alternator, etc? Where as the rear delivers all of the rest of the horsepower the engine makes. What do those 3.6's make? About 225 each? I think you will need to weld a big flange to the front of that crank, similar to that the flywheel side has. That's assuming it is weldable. I don't think Subarus are known for having particularly strong cranks.

I'm sure you considered a common crank/case. Wouldn't it be cool if a Jag V12 crank would fit in two Subaru cases that were welded together? Sometimes there are weird coincidences like that, like how a Volvo twin cam head bolts onto a Ford Lima block.

In reply to carwhisperer: One cylinder firing in each engine at the same time. If something brakes I have a plan B.

Jack2052 wrote: In reply to Mazda787b: You obviously haven't priced a Superformance GT-40!

I misread, thought it was $100k for the 917..

I have sold the Lemans 917 coupe to a Builder in Switzerland and delivered it to RCR Replicars for combined shipment with one of their 917's. To build my cars I had to become very familiar with the 917. Fran at RCR did a magnificent job with his chassis and the body is spot on. One car sold and I want to push the F1 car. I may have a line on wiring the Can Am Car's engines and transaxle. The car itself is 98 percent done. I just need to do the wiring and finish the Joe Siffert, STP body.