The GRM Free Lotus Europa - 2GR V6 Swap $2000 Challenge Car

gixxeropa - did not realize you were local! Feel free to come check out the build. I'd like to see yours too. 

I agree that any cage work should also include a proper tubular beefening up of the backbone frame. I hadn't thought of widening the front track by simply cutting and widening the front bulkhead - that's a good idea, especially with tubes. The steering rack already uses threaded spacers to extend its width, and the brake hoses may have enough slack to accomodate.

As always, I appreciate all the opinions or else I wouldn't be posting! It's only the GRM forums where I can get this sort of dialog on such a specific topic. Where else can you have multiple people commenting with firsthand experience about the strength of a car's frame, of which only 9,000 units were made roughly 50 years ago?

As for where my head is at currently regarding this car's future... well, I'm still undecided. To move forward with another $2000 Challenge campaign, it needs some cage/roll-bar work since it is clearly too fast to be safe, which means lifting the body on and off multiple times, which means I really need a lift and an empty garage space. My 2-car garage is currently full. I have plans and the means to build a detached shop, but have not acted on them yet. So I probably won't work on the Lotus again until I build a shop, which could be months away. On the other hand, to get rid of the car, I feel like I can't really sell it in its current state to just anyone. It's too sketchy and fast. If I sold it, I would probably pull the engine and sell it as a roller, which also requires work in a garage space I don't have yet. Or someone from GRM that I know and trust would have to take it. For now it costs me nothing to just park it in the yard for a while...hopefully not too long of a while, or else it may fall into disrepair and the legend start all over again...

In reply to maschinenbau :

I'm glad to hear you are looking hard at safety. 
 

If a cage is a consideration, consider putting the main hoop outside the cockpit (behind the rear window). I saw a pic of a Europa like this once... it worked much better than it sounds. 

If you need a place to work, I'll volunteer my shop for a few weekends. We can put the chassis on the scissor lift and hang the body with a winch from the 16' ceiling- it would work really well. 
 

The drawback... Im about 1 1/2 hours from you. But a couple weekends and you'd be done. Then you could spend most of the year dialing in the car. 

I totally understand the hesitation to sell a running deathtrap to the general public. That was a big consideration for why I sold my Europa within the GRM community and not just on FB.... And my car was far from running. I'd hate to read an article about some kid who hurt themselves in my old car.

Building a full up chassis is a major commitment that only makes sense if you're passionate about this particular weird ass car. Even caging the car is a pain, with a lot of compromises. You've done a ton with it, do you want to take it farther, or does having competed the free Europa meet your project goals?

When I built the Outlaw Bug my original plan was to build an Outlaw Europa using only the Europa body and building a complete modern chassis under it.    Got talked out of it by Eric, but it still stirs my imagination.

That is pretty much how I felt about my turbo Spitfire, was way too fast for the chassis, had no safety provisions, really needed a re-think to be driven much on the street. @Purplefrog, that chassis with a Europa body on it would be awesome, especially since you could do a hoop bar behind the rear window properly tied into the frame. My issue is that old sports cars like Europas and similar are made from tin cans, fiberglass and folded sheet metal frames and are not designed for big power. @maschinenbau like where you are going with this, first year was to build it to see if it can be done, now a rethink to make it reach it's full potential and not fold in half. Tube chassis or at least tube chassis combined with the backbone chassis and a cage would let you keep pushing the performance. Having just built a shop, I would get on that now, as it took me almost a year to get mine permitted, built and finally wired for electricity.

Leaning towards building a cage. Perimeter floor made from 2x2x.058 mild steel tube, and cage made from 1.625x.120 DOM mild steel. As far as I can tell, this construction method would be legal for NHRA (and therefore $2000 Challenge), SCCA, NASA, and Gridlife time attack. This is similar to what nocones did with the LMP360. I do not see another path forward to bring this to the Challenge. It's too unsafe to ever go drag racing again, and a roll bar would require the floor frame anyway, so might as well make it a more useful racecar. 

I would make the body a completely removable hat. Everything would be mounted to the chassis, ideally making it driveable without the body. The front bumper tubes would be to protect the fuel tank, mount the radiator, and provide a much-needed jacking point. The rear bulkhead, rear window, and floor would be built into the cage. A rubber gasket would go along the rockers and around the main hoop. The total weight added would be 175 lbs, which I would make up for with nitrous.

The challenge is cost. I would need 60 ft of the 1.625 DOM and 30 ft of the 2x2 SQ. I can only afford up to $500 in the Challenge budget, and only if I get good money for the cats. 

In to keep watching this progress!

Solid plan. What is the current rear bulkhead/engine cage(darker blue rect tube) tube size? NHRA will call out that your rear cage stays land on 2x2 or more 1.625"

In reply to gumby :

A mixture of random crap. Definitely not 2x2, possibly 1.5x1.5 or even less in some places. Could I make a landing plate instead?

In reply to maschinenbau :

Structurally, yes. Technically, not legally. You will find a similar discussion buried in nocones thread.

Also, you may consider an x or diagonal in each floor area instead of your middle lateral box tube. Can be smaller square tube unless you are after a chassis cert that requires something. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

I'm glad to see this. 
 

You ran into the problem in the real world that I was scared of in the theoretical world (and kept me from  proceeding). I couldn't get past the fact that this thing was gonna be unsafe (and wicked fast), and I couldn't come up with an NHRA legal plan to move forward. 
 

You are on the right path.  I'm excited!

In reply to gumby :

So probably need to replace these tubes with more 2x2. Shouldn't be too bad with the powertrain cradle dropped, which I plan to do anyway for the manual swap. 

In reply to maschinenbau :

Yessir!

In reply to maschinenbau :

Is it worth considering losing the engine subframe and going full tube frame at this point?  That would address those NHRA concerns, and the combined loss of the weight of the auto slush box and the engine cradle would be significant. 

Looking forward to following this!

I am definitely interested in this part of your project!

might have been posted before, but here's the period solution for a roll cage in a europa, very remisiscent of your design in places. Banks manufactures ones that's approved for FIA historic racing, although it looks like you want to go a bit beyond that

I will post more thoughts when I am at a keyboard but none of them will be plan changing.  You are on the right path for sure.   I could see going full tube frame but I think doing what you are planning at this point is probably best.  I don't think a full tube frame would save you much that weight.  

I would consider the following to make gumbys concern go away.  Of note is it basically is exactly what the LMP360 chassis looks like which is legal everywhere that has looked at it. 

Here the Red is a piece of 2*2.  Basically the idea is your cage landing is always on a 2*2 that runs "continuously" from front to back.  

Orange can be random hot garbage steel but it's to good of an opportunity to not tie the down tube back into the side impact tube at your shoulder at the harness bar.  

The only other quick note is I would do the side impact like this. 

It's not TECHNICALLY NHRA legal but..  precidence exists for NASCAR type door bars which this is a variation off.  it's superior and preferred by everyone else.  My plan is to eventually cut out the weaker NHRA side impact (only 1 tube actually crosses the doors) and replace it with a FIA bar (straight from top of windshield down to bottom of front node) and FIA style impact bars.   

In reply to nocones :

That's a clever interpretation of the rules and I love it. I also like those door bars. 

I want to attack some time with you next year.

I will decide whether to keep the subframe when I go to remove the engine. If it makes the job easier, I'll keep. If it's a total PITA and the manual trans doesn't fit, it's gone. I think the manual will weigh the same as the automatic. The E153 is a heckin' chonk. 

It should be interesting to get in and out of it .....

I have been kicking around building an "outlaw" Europa for a few years.  Much like my Outlaw Bug, but even more modern.  36" high, 1500#, 300+ HP.   Mentioned it to Nocones a few years back.  Every time I put it to paper I always end up throwing all the original chassis and suspension away, and building a "ship in the bottle".   A full tube frame chassis within a Europa fiberglass body.  I just can't design a strong cage adapted to that tinfoil center chassis that isn't that stiff to begin with.   I even got to the point, because of side bars, it would be a mid-seater, and egress would be through the roof like a funny car.  (no one wants to ride with me anyway).  By tossing the original chassis you gain a lot of room for "stuff" you need, stiffness, and a suspension that can take the stress of more power and braking.

YMMV

In reply to nocones :

Regarding the X-bar, I see what you mean - at the middle of the X there is only 1 tube cross section. Could you simply weld a lower horizontal bar in below the X intersection? All the rulebooks seem to have no problem with extraneous member added in. My fiberglass doors are quite easy to trim for clearance. 

In my head this the order from safest to least safest: FIA gusseted X-bar (potentially Challenge-illegal) > NHRA X-bar with lower brace > Nascar door bars > NHRA X-bar. So I am leaning towards the NHRA X-bar with lower member added. Or maybe just gussets.

Maybe I'm not quite understanding...

X bars that are made out of two complete, continuous bars that just touch in the middle and gusseted should be legal everywhere I would think.

Like this, just turned 90 degrees...   )(

In reply to maschinenbau :

No, at the middle of the X there are 2 cross sections of tubing on an FIA bar
 

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

You have the right idea of FIA bars.  Per my understanding of the NHRA rules that layout is not legal. Everyone else shows both an X with one bar non continuous or two non intersecting (NASCAR or FIA style) bars as legal.   Of note is when I ran the LMP360 Robbie ran the ExoBMW which had FIA bars with a Bluetooth connection at the two bars with no issues.  

What I planned to do to restore strength on mine short term (that I have never managed to do) is do 4 taco gussets so extra material is added across the single tube in shear.  

But I never got around to it.  They could be added and still be NHRA legal but that was a lot of $$ in 4130 plate so I didn't do it and have just been using the car continuously