The Shart - Adventures in turbocharging with a 1964 Dodge Dart

In reply to APEowner:

I don't exactly have friends with machine shop access... but that's a possibility. And I agree wholeheartedly with your point about things coming apart eventually. That was why I built the kit cheap in the first place. Now I'm at a crossroads for where to go next, nothing specifically came apart (the engine still runs strong I just ruined a cheap turbo) but like you said, any money spent could very quickly go down the drain when something does come apart. The other issue is that the entire driveline in this thing is pretty old and outdated, with a very large propensity for snowball effect if something goes bad. IE; if the trans lets go I'll either need to find a transmission that was only used for a couple years in the 60's OR find a whole new transmission, torque converter, shifter and driveshaft. These are the things that lead me down the v8 rabbit hole just to upgrade to more modern (probably 1970's) and common parts. Plus I think I'm money and parts availability ahead if I do decide to try and make power.

In reply to tuna55:

Yes, I'm aware that the mad scientist is a MS expert, but I don't want to be one of those "ask a million questions before doing any research" guys.

In reply to RossD:

Horsepower isn't my main prerogative but it's certainly a consideration. The bigger point being what I addressed above with parts availability. I realize that you have FAR bigger concerns in that department than me, so I feel like me whining to you is baseless, but none the less I admire and love weird stuff, but don't know if I'm patient enough to really put up with it.

Another consideration is to ditch the turbo idea and try to do a simple naturally aspirated port fuel injection setup for the same reason I did the turbo in the first place- knowledge of a new tech. That could help the longevity point brought up by APEowner earlier.

-I really appreciate all the input, if nothing else it's motivation to keep plucking away and thinking of new things.

In reply to Gunchsta:

On the contrary, I think he needs to step up, think of the publicity, we even might know a magazine which may be interested in a "look how easily we can run a /6 with a turbocharger and megasquirt" article series, through which DIYautotune, you and GRM all benefit.

Also me, because that sounds like a super article.

Alot of your reasonings is why i dont boost the 200 i6 in my car. By the time your done building a good blowthrough set up your in should of had a v8 territory. While the slant 6 doesnt have the terrible intake design of my car at some point you have to weigh the fun/horsepower per dollar. Alot easier to get small block parts if your broke down roadside then it is to get parts for a custom built turbo kit.

Personally, i would find a cheap, wrecked durango 2wd with a 5.2 or 5.9 and slam in there with the factory pcm. Get the kinks worked out, then convert to megasquirt. Then boost. Then more boost. And then boost.....

In reply to Dusterbd13:

That's kinda what I was thinking. 2wd Durango's don't exist where I'm from but I'm sure a ram would have the same goodies. What are your thoughts on transmission then? Obviously my slant six pusbutton is going bye bye, but will whatever overdrive (presumably) those things have fit in the trans tunnel? I know my Nova had a really tiny tunnel and some google-fu earlier leads me to believe this Dart is no different. Not that I'm above hacking the floor up mind you, just some questions.

In reply to tuna55:

So easy even this midwestern hack can do it! ha ha ha. If I were madscientistmatt I wouldn't want to rely on me.

In reply to dropstep:

I mean, there's always cost per power to consider, but some people just don't care for a v8. Plus, what you end up with then is every car on the road having an LS swap because they are arguably the most supported and documented 'bang for the buck' engines. That's no fun either. At least with a custom built turbo kit (assuming you built it yourself) if it breaks you know that you built it and therefor you can fix it. Not necessarily on the side of the road but it can be done.

It's hard to spend money to NOT go fast though, I definitely agree.

Gunchsta wrote: In reply to dropstep: I mean, there's always cost per power to consider, but some people just don't care for a v8. Plus, what you end up with then is every car on the road having an LS swap because they are arguably the most supported and documented 'bang for the buck' engines. That's no fun either. At least with a custom built turbo kit (assuming you built it yourself) if it breaks you know that you built it and therefor you can fix it. Not necessarily on the side of the road but it can be done. It's hard to spend money to NOT go fast though, I definitely agree.

Well the 302 was a factory option for my car and im a big ford guy so zero chance of an ls maybe its just easier for my chassis in particular. Id certainly use a small block mopar in a dart, not an ls. Wasnt that era dart offered with the 273 factory?

In reply to dropstep:

Yeah, in 64 or 65 the Dart was offered with a 273- which I actually know of one of those for sale locally as well. My reasoning for being more interested in a newer 318 or 360 is just the whole age thing- you tend to pay a premium for 'old' stuff because it's period correct. I don't care as much about that and figure a 150,000 mile fuel injected 318 would probably be a less worn out motor than a lower mile 60's vintage 273.

I'm thinking the most likely thing at this point is for me to dump some mild v8 in it and get the brakes and bolt pattern sorted out. If I go V8 it will give me a good opportunity to upgrade to disc brakes and the large bolt pattern rear end I have. Then I can open all kinds of doors for wheel options as the thing is normal 5x4.5" bolt pattern. Plus I do really love the sound of a v8.

Stay tuned! Probably won't be much progress in the next few weeks as I'm getting married shortly, but who knows.

I just figured if there was a stock smallblock option you could buy mounts etc if your against hacking the car.

Why not find a cheap V6 or 305 tbi gm truck on cl and rob the components you need for a cheap fi setup?

In reply to dropstep:

Yep, there definitely is. I think that's what I'm leaning heavily towards. Later 318/360's are pretty common and cheap around me.

I seem to recall that the V8 cars used a different K-frame. If my memory is correct then you'll need to factor that into any conversion plans.

In reply to minivan_racer:

I certainly could- but that also requires a $350 intake manifold.

The real dilemma in my mind has been addressed a few times and it's that the whole driveline in this car is A.) antiquated and B.) going to fail at some point. I would like to modernize it enough to have parts more readily available, then perhaps start again on a turbo setup. Unfortunately I know myself and what it's probably going to get is a very basic carbed small block and an auto. Both of which will cost more than this magical intake manifold I'm complaining about, but I'm not comfortable dumping money into such outdated tech.

In reply to APEowner:

All of my googling says that was later- the early stuff apparently all used the same K frame. Apparently there is a v8 center link that poses an issue sometimes, but people just raise the engine or notch the oil pan and it can be worked around.

Gunchsta wrote: In reply to minivan_racer: I certainly could- but that also requires a $350 intake manifold. ____________________ The real dilemma in my mind has been addressed a few times and it's that the whole driveline in this car is A.) antiquated and B.) going to fail at some point. I would like to modernize it enough to have parts more readily available, then perhaps start again on a turbo setup. Unfortunately I know myself and what it's probably going to get is a very basic carbed small block and an auto. Both of which will cost more than this magical intake manifold I'm complaining about, but I'm not comfortable dumping money into such outdated tech.

A 318 is still outdated tech.

The FI setup has the benefit of staying with basically everything from the manifold down, requiring wiring, throttle and fuel solutions. Swapping to a V8 is a bigger list of parts.

It's your car though.

In reply to tuna55:

It is undoubtedly outdated- but it's supported. I like old stuff, but I don't really like non-existent stuff.

Swapping to a v8 is certainly a bigger parts list (motor and transmission for certain) but the thing is it frees me up to upgrade some things in the mean time- IE: brakes and bolt pattern. The big hang up I have with the slant 6 is that the transmission has a very odd output (ball and trunnion vs. slip yoke) meaning that in order to put in the large bolt pattern rear end I have I need to make a custom driveshaft, which is fine, but I don't want to spend the money on a custom driveshaft for a set of parts that is no longer supported much nor is something I'm in love with. It's a definite snowball type of situation but will eventually resolve a lot of 'parts availability' issues.

Gunchsta wrote: In reply to tuna55: It is undoubtedly outdated- but it's supported. I like old stuff, but I don't really like non-existent stuff. Swapping to a v8 is certainly a bigger parts list (motor and transmission for certain) but the thing is it frees me up to upgrade some things in the mean time- IE: brakes and bolt pattern. The big hang up I have with the slant 6 is that the transmission has a very odd output (ball and trunnion vs. slip yoke) meaning that in order to put in the large bolt pattern rear end I have I need to make a custom driveshaft, which is fine, but I don't want to spend the money on a custom driveshaft for a set of parts that is no longer supported much nor is something I'm in love with. It's a definite snowball type of situation but will eventually resolve a lot of 'parts availability' issues.

Why does wheels/brakes hinge upon the engine/transmission? I must have missed this.

In reply to tuna55:

Ok so the car currently has 5x4" bolt pattern which is odd. I would like to do front brakes and convert it to 5x4.5" which is common. But, I don't want mismatched wheel bolt patterns, so I want to change out the rear end as well so I can have 5x4.5". And if I'm changing out the rear end I'll likely have to have a custom driveshaft made, which I don't want to do with the transmission I have as it uses an odd and not very supported ball and trunnion style yoke instead of the standard slip yoke.

Maybe I'm honestly insane.

Gunchsta wrote: In reply to tuna55: Ok so the car currently has 5x4" bolt pattern which is odd. I would like to do front brakes and convert it to 5x4.5" which is common. But, I don't want mismatched wheel bolt patterns, so I want to change out the rear end as well so I can have 5x4.5". And if I'm changing out the rear end I'll likely have to have a custom driveshaft made, which I don't want to do with the transmission I have as it uses an odd and not very supported ball and trunnion style yoke instead of the standard slip yoke. Maybe I'm honestly insane.

I am fairly certain you can just re-drill a 5x4.5 pattern on the same axle that you have a 5x4 pattern on without doing anything else.

Even if you did swap something, you would just swap axles.

I think if you want wheels and brakes, do it regardless of engine.

In reply to tuna55:

The hub flanges on the mopar 7.25 are too small to re-drill to 4.5" from what I understand.

And I agree with wheels and brakes regardless of engine, but in this instance they're all intertwined as I see it.

Looks like you can redrill or just swap to later axles

http://www.dippy.org/forum2/index.php?topic=73.0

After building 7.5, 8.5, and 8.75 for a bodies, i would honestly find an explorer 8.8 and shorten the long side.

Alse, fmj spindles up front get you better camber gain with acceptable bumpsteer.

In reply to tuna55:

Hmm that could work- although I think the later large bolt pattern ones would be a different length so they'd have to be shortened. I'm not entirely sure though.

What about a '94-95 SN95 Mustang rear axle? I think the front is doable with front end parts from an early-70's A-body Dodge.

I know the gearing is sort of less than optimal, and the trans tunnel may need some correction, but I think I'd go looking for a 5.2 or 5.9 Magnum and a four speed automatic out of a 94-up Ram truck or van (making sure it's actually a four speed trans and not another flavor of three speed which apparently lasted a lot longer than they should have...). This is basically the driveline I would consider if I had my '64 Savoy again and I got tired of dealing with the Slant 6.