I Bought a Jag. An Old One. Jumping into British Car Ownership with Both Feet.

While washing the Jag today I made a discovery: the rear wheels appear to be flat hub 72 spokers, and the fronts are curly hub ones. Huh. Someone else has been here before me...

Fiddling with the SUS last night, I noted that, somehow, a 1/2", 9/16", 13mm and 14mm socket all failed to engage the top carburetor bolt. Ya know what it was? 1/4" Whitworth. Luckily, I have a rack of those...

Bought at a Brit car show, several years before I ever even owned any Brit cars. I just had a feeling that I should own them...

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

There is nothing metric in older British cars.  The Limey’s invented inches using 3 kernels from the middle of a barley corn 

Why the heck use something invented by the Frogs? 

Heading out to Cars and Coffee. 

Black and Blue. 

Cars and Coffee was a success!  Both cars made it there and back under their own power.  The parking lot where it was held was about 20 miles away; we stopped for gas on the way down, near the house, and on the way back I filled up the Jag again.  Its still running on just the one 7 gallon tank, so I wanted to make sure it was full.  Used 2.2 gallons for 38 miles of driving, so ~16 mpg.  Not too terrible.  Most of the drive was on 2 lane blacktop through rolling farm country.  Pretty drive for an early Sunday morning.  

We rolled into the C&C a few minutes before 8, parked and went down to have breakfast.  The next 2 hours were fun- we walked around with the kids, talking to other folks about their cars.  There were a few families there, which I was encouraged by.  One dad came over with his kids to look at the Jag, and I let the kids hop in and check it out- they were about 4 and 2, I'd guess.  The older one, a boy, commented how much he liked it.  I told him, well, maybe you'll own one some day.  Gotta light the fire.

Before we left- I'd noted some pinking under acceleration on the drive there.  Since my tool kit was in the boot, I decided to trim the base timing back a few degrees before heading home.  Of course, when you open the bonnet with a bunch of other old car owners about, you immediately attract a crowd.  One fellow (who I suspect was not an old car guy) peered over and asked what I was doing; when I replied "Setting the timing" he replied "You can just...do that?"  Yup.  I can.  With a 7/16 spanner and a flat blade screwdriver.  

The drive home was better, no pinking, but when we stopped to refuel Mrs VCH informed me that my brake lights seemed to have packed up.  As it turns out, when tinkering with the distributor I'd inadvertently knocked one of the spade terminals off the pressure switch mounted on the brake booster.  Last night I cleaned and tightened the terminals and the brake lights worked again.  The left one was slightly dimmer than the right; I overhauled it, cleaned the grounds and terminals, installed a new 1157 bulb, and now they both work great.  

The only other major issue now is there seems to be a strange metallic noise coming from the front wheels.  The noise only happens on turns, and generally only on the unloaded wheel- that is, when turning right, the right side front wheel makes the noise, and vice-versa.  It sort of has a pulsation to it, which is speed dependent.   Odd.  When I pull the front wheels to replace them I'll look into it more in-depth.  The new tires/wheels should be here this week.  For now, it'll stay garaged.  

Oh, and the new exhaust sounds great.  Quiet at cruise, with a bit of a rasp under acceleration.  

Looking really good.  Glad to hear its back to running great and with a new exhaust note.

yanked apart the front wheels, and found the pads were...not worn, but "aged".  They crumbled apart as I removed them.

Looking at new pads....then started looking at the dunlop calipers on there.  They're getting hard to get parts for, and the ones on there, while they work (both pistons move in and out), the seals are dry rotted and the bleed screws are broken off.  

From some brief googling, it looks like the Wilwood calipers 120-6808 are a bolt-on replacement.  

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-120-6808?cm_mmc=ppc-google-_-search-_-brands-_-keyword&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8omJlYqH4wIVA8NkCh3PIQf3EAMYASAAEgLCNfD_BwE

Be this rumor true?  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Yes!  They bolt right on. Unless originality is critical I use Wilwood on a lot of British sports cars and sedans. 

If you use Wilwood in the rear  you need to get clever with adapting the parking brakes for street cars though. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Yes!  They bolt right on. Unless originality is critical I use Wilwood on a lot of British sports cars and sedans. 

If you use Wilwood in the rear  you need to get clever with adapting the parking brakes for street cars though. 

Sweet.  Looks like I'll be getting a set of Wilwoods for the front and packing the old Dunlops into a box in my garage for posterity.  Any changes to the hoses or lines, or are they literally bolt-on?  That 120-6808 is the one I want, right?

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

I never replace a caliper without new brake lines and I always use braided steel that I make my self. So I honestly don’t know if the originals will fit back on.  I do know they aren’t metric or anything weird

Last night I pulled off one of the Dunlop calipers to measure it.  The mounting holes on it are 3" apart.  Looking on the Wilwood website, there are no calipers that use that mounting pattern.  So, not going to work.  

Back to Square 1.  

Looks like there are indeed Wilwood calipers that will bolt on the front of your S-type.  They are supplied in an XKs Unlimited kit that includes aluminum adpater brackets that make the bolt-on possible.

HundredDollarCar said:

Looks like there are indeed Wilwood calipers that will bolt on the front of your S-type.  They are supplied in an XKs Unlimited kit that includes aluminum adpater brackets that make the bolt-on possible.

  

OK, so they need a different bracket.  I didn't see the kit on the website...link?

Be careful....the 3.8S is not an "S-type".  I have to search under "early saloon" to find 3.8S specific parts.  S-Types are totally different cars.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Measure the distance between bolts that connect the caliper to the spindle. I’m pretty sure they are all the same I’ve used Wilwood calipers on XK150  spindles, XJS spindles, XKE spindles,  

but call Wilwood to confirm if you’d like. They are very nice people to work with and quick to answer questions like this.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Swing and a MIss.  Neither XKs or Wilwood make a kit for the 3.8S.  Apparently the early saloons are slightly weird in some way.  So I'm back to either overhauling the Dunlop calipers or figuring out a solution of my own.  

I do have one thought, it involves some calipers I have on hand for another car....

OK, I was searching under "Early Saloons" and saw 3.8.  Here is a link to the Wilwood Brake Upgrade page: https://xks.com/i-6916972-wilwood-front-brake-conversion-kit-for-jaguar-mk-ii-17-1213.html?ref=category:1207481

They have kits for several versions of XKE and the other MkII saloons.  But this one was listed for a 3.8.   I know they do not have an application for my 420 which is totally different from the other MkII saloons (single inboard piston and dual outboard pistons),

In reply to HundredDollarCar :

Odd. I was on the phone with XKS and the rep said specifically they do not carry such a kit. Maybe he just didn't know about it?  

EDIT: I thik I may see the confusion.  Mine is not a MkII.  It is a 3.8S.  The nomenclature can be a bit....confusing.  I don't think that kit will fit.  

Decided to tear into the old Dunlop calipers tonight. Surprisingly, the bores and pistons aren't as bad as I'd suspected. XKS does sell a seal kits for these, so I think I'm going to go that route- hone and reseal- versus a conversion, at this point. The seal kits a few dozen dollars, so between that, new pads, and a pair of new front rotors, i'll be into the job for a c-note. Give or take. 

The only real problem with my Dunlops is the bleeder screws are broken off, but I've been able to successfully bleed them by cracking the crossover pipe screw and letting them gravity bleed. 

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Very common!  Use heat and reverse twist drill bits to slightly loosen them.  Next you have to have a great set of EZ outs because cheap ones will snap off and make things worse. 

They sell new bleeders.  Use anti seize when you fit them and then bleed your brakes frequently. Like every 6 months.   

Bleeders breaking off is a real weakness.  

With the rotors and hubs off, I cleaned off the spindles last night and at first was slightly horrified to feel what seemed like the surface the bearings rode upon was very rough.  After fully cleaning it off, and test-fitting the hib and bearings back on, though, I realized what was going on:

In what could probably be described as a "cost saving" bit of design, only the bearing surfaces on the spindle are machined.  The rest is still rough cast.  I've never seen anything like this before....but I....guess....it's fine?  

Got the calipers out of the buckets of carb cleaner they've been soaking in.  Cleaned everything up, ready for new seals.  The bores of the calipers look good, 2 of the pistons look good, one looks OK and the 4th piston seems marginal, but nothing leaked before so hopefully it'll be OK.  

After some deliberation I think I'm not going to mess with the broken off bleed screws.  There's just too many opportunities to berkeley that up- broken off drill bits, gouged threads or bleed screw seat, etc.  If I can find a set of spare calipers at some point I may try to overhaul them, but for now I'll just bleed via the crossover pipe on the caliper.  It's worked so far.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

 Too bad I threw all my old Dunlop calipers away when I switched to Wilwoods.  

They do make a stainless steel piston assembly  to replace the Dunlop ones that pretty much ends the need for periodic rebuilds. 

These look kind of similar to ATE stuff on old German things. IIRC they have like 2.5 or 3 inch spacing and are really cheap. I replaced a Ferrari 308 rear caliper with one off a Porsche 914-6 and it was identical for a fraction of the cost. 

Unfortunately the 3.8S stuff seems to be slightly weird, so I don't know what would really fit....other than another caliper off a 3.8S.  

I have some 3 piston Girling calipers off a Volvo 122, and they have a 3" bolt spacing and were used on a solid front rotor.  Problem is the pad area is greater so I'd have to modify the backing plate....and I think the offset of the caliper relative to the rotor is slightly different.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

The 3.8 mkll I’ve worked on and owned are the same caliper as the XKE’s  ( series 1&2) I also swapped the XK 150 calipers with them and I know the MK9 calipers interchange. Because I’ve used those as well.  The Dunlop pistons may be different sizes but interchange freely on the calipers. 

The spindles interchange with early and later spindles  but you will need a seriously big press to get them off the original upright. 

  I’ll bet you the whole front wheel assembly  will interchange with the later XJ6/12  and then you could have vented rotors and modern calipers.  

I’ve seen real Dunlop wire wheels on a XJ12 with vented rotors and calipers. Everything looked factory  even though it wasn’t a factory option.  

Perhaps fittingly, the Jag was out of commission on Independence Day.  The package of brake goodies arrived today from XKs, and since I'd taken the day off anyway, after a bit of gardening in the morning and putting the kids down for their mid day siesta, I went out to the car hole to go bang on my old Brit.  

The new rotors are visually thicker than the ones that were on the car.  

The old NAPA drill hone made quick work of polishing up the caliper bores, everything cleaned up neat and tidy, new seals, new boots...

Made note of the fact that the broken-off bleed screws are on the smaller, removeable half of the caliper.  From what I can tell, the old XKE calipers used 2 of these bolted to the center carrier deal.  If the XKE removable caliper portion is the same as the one on the 3.8S, I may be able to find a good used one with a bleeder screw that isn't a broken off mess.  Anyway, here's the Right and Left calipers, with stampings for reference:

The driver's side is all back together and the passenger side caliper is reassembled.  Should be able to get it all back together tomorrow.  It's not the most....straightforward...brake job I've ever done, but with care and patience and a stiff upper lip it all fits back in the way it came out.  

I live in the rust belt and it’s normal to have to pull out the bleeder valve after it’s broken off.  

Heat and penetrating fluid plus a good EZ out  removes them. Then I run a tap in to clean up the threads.  When I put the new bleeder in I am liberal with the anti seize. 

Then every time I bleed the brake I pull the bleeder all the way out and redcoat the threads with Anti seize.