Is it time for a Vintage version of the $2017 challenge?

You know there are a lot of us with older unrestored old classics that could probably get something running to have fun with.. Some old geezer with a car he bought back when they were cheap? It's needs a little this and that to get running and maybe a fresh (er) set of tires?

You could handicap them based on age and class they were originally in.. An 1957 MGA for example would get 600 points for age (10 for every year old it is) and 500 points for being in F production.. while a 1957 Corvette would get 600 points for age and 0 points for class.

A production 0 points

B production 100 points

C production 200 points

D production 300 points

E production 400 points

F production 500 points

G production 600 points

H production 700 points.

Upgrades would cost based on how much of an upgrade it is..

Disk brakes on the MGA would cost -40 (10 points for every year) points and a 1962 MGB engine would take away -50 (10 for every year)

I have two candidates for this concept at the moment!

Or you could just bring what you got to the existing event and have some fun!

You'll get in the mag, if not a full feature, but most of all you'll have fun!

Honestly, complicating the event like this won't help.

The Challenge is open to all that meet the rules, bring something and participate.

How about just some friendly track time, such as high(er) speed parade laps . Something an older street car has a hope of passing tech for without racing equipment installed. more of this kind of thing: Lake Garnett Grand Prix Revival. Gets the car on a track and gives the owner something to talk about at the next cars & coffee.

In reply to Stefan:

Hmm... it depends. I could see some sort of points based grading rather than cost. While some may enjoy the challenge of building a car to a price point, personally I do not. I may try at some point, but so far the right car that interests me has not presented itself.

Here Vintage costs MONEY

GTXVette wrote: Here Vintage costs MONEY

Yes it can cost a lot but it doesn't have to.. I picked up a nearly perfect 33 year old Jag XJ-S for $500. It will make a perfect Group 44 tribute car.. Sure the engine was semi disassembled, but it's just an engine, no big deal.. I'm sure you are comfortable with some engine so look for cars that use that and learn how to do rust patches..

The cool thing about a race car is the expensive bits like upholstery, trim, and paint don't matter. A roll bar is the same cost new or old car..

Stefan wrote: Or you could just bring what you got to the existing event and have some fun! You'll get in the mag, if not a full feature, but most of all you'll have fun! Honestly, complicating the event like this won't help. The Challenge is open to all that meet the rules, bring something and participate.

There is no way a 50 year old car can turn in a respectable time against newer cars but if it's competing against cars of it's age then the entrant can have fun..

BillBall wrote: How about just some friendly track time, such as high(er) speed parade laps . Something an older street car has a hope of passing tech for without racing equipment installed. more of this kind of thing: Lake Garnett Grand Prix Revival. Gets the car on a track and gives the owner something to talk about at the next cars & coffee.

Take some rusty old thing out and lap a race track with all the fast, shiny, newer cars? Too embarrassing. You see high dollar restorations gently driving around the track during noontime vintage events sometimes. You don't see the Rusty old banger that's been mechanically freshened up enough for one final run in the sun..

Back in 1986 during the Bahama Grand Prix there was a 1947 MGTC special driven by a 87 year old owner.. The bare old aluminum was as wrinkled as the drivers face but there it was wheel to wheel with everybody dead last but he finished!! The clear joy he displayed before during and after made everybody happy..

Ian F wrote: In reply to Stefan: Hmm... it depends. I could see some sort of points based grading rather than cost. While some may enjoy the challenge of building a car to a price point, personally I do not. I may try at some point, but so far the right car that interests me has not presented itself.

If you're waiting for the right car, are you sure you'll find it in time to have fun with it? Maybe it's time to grab a bull by the horns and hang on? I know when it's time for me to take my long dirt nap I won't regret the things I've done or attempted to do but I sure will regret the things I never tried..

In reply to frenchyd:

For me, a difficulty with building a Challenge car (vintage or not) is less to do with the car or the build as much as what to do with the car afterwards. If I'm going to build a non-streetable race car, then it will have to be built to some other ruleset outside of the Challenge, so I'll be able to do something with it after the event. Those rules would often greatly restrict what changes can be made with regard to keeping a car within budget as well as being even remotely competitive.

FWIW, the challenge already recognizes vintage cars.

I have a trophy for it.

Also, what Ian says is very true and important. Which kind of reduces the choices to pretty common so that you can trash it, or have a serious plan for a cool hot rod, or go vintage racing with it.

The last one is probably the best path to take. Look at Andrew's builds, and you can see that building a DIY racing chassis is well within the challenge- it's more up to skills and whatnot.

And I ALMOST did it- as after I ran the Spider for 3 years, I got a '67 GT JR chassis that would have been a great vintage racer. But instead, I found a different car to try vintage racing. In hindsight- it was the wrong choice- as the Challenge build path would have been the same effort, cheaper, and would have been a blast to bring to Florida.

But in the long run, the long term plan is more important than for a typical challenge car.

edit- thinking a little more- it would make sense to allow some extra margin for Vintage cars, since it's harder to find them in the right price bracket.

If I could find one for cheap enough, I'd do a Spitfire or a TR7. Probably the latter since I think a hardtop example would be useful for other things - say maybe for rally-cross. And the engine bay is more accommodating of engine swaps.

Actually... a TR7 just popped up on my local Triumph club FB feed. Hmm...

Ian F wrote: In reply to frenchyd: For me, a difficulty with building a Challenge car (vintage or not) is less to do with the car or the build as much as what to do with the car afterwards. If I'm going to build a non-streetable race car, then it will have to be built to some other ruleset outside of the Challenge, so I'll be able to do something with it after the event. Those rules would often greatly restrict what changes can be made with regard to keeping a car within budget as well as being even remotely competitive.

I've always thought the real goal of the challenge was to get people involved.. Maybe once the challenge is over you can spend your next bit of money on improving the appearance of the car. At that point maybe you'll feel comfortable running vintage events? As a little more money appears increase power gains, handling gains, etc..

Ian F wrote: If I could find one for cheap enough, I'd do a Spitfire or a TR7. Probably the latter since I think a hardtop example would be useful for other things - say maybe for rally-cross. And the engine bay is more accommodating of engine swaps. Actually... a TR7 just popped up on my local Triumph club FB feed. Hmm...

There are a lot of older cars sitting in garages, barns, shops etc.. the owners have given up on but might want to partner with a young enthusiast. They don't want to dispose of their old car or sell it for scrap but they will eagerly help some young person freshen it up and put it back on the track..

In reply to frenchyd:

Yes... but then a combination of sentimentality, ego and watching TV auction shows inflates their perceived value of the car. "I saw one of these sell for $20K on B-J last week..." nevermind that car was perfect and your car needs $30K in work to get to that $20K value...

BillBall wrote: How about just some friendly track time, such as high(er) speed parade laps . Something an older street car has a hope of passing tech for without racing equipment installed. more of this kind of thing: Lake Garnett Grand Prix Revival. Gets the car on a track and gives the owner something to talk about at the next cars & coffee.

Billball---come to the Mitty--- we do exactly this during the Parade and Touring laps. The speeds aren't real high, but folks love getting a driver's-eye view of the track. There are always photo opportunities, so you can show your friends that you had your car "on track".

While some vintage or older cars can be made into either a track car or vintage race car for a reasonable budget, it could be difficult with a true budget cap.

A track day version of the event could be done, but might need a higher budget, maybe $5,000. Not sure if the magazine would want the added risk involved with a low cost track event.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

So what is the difference between "parade" and "touring" laps? I'll make the Mitty someday.

In reply to BillBall:

Parade laps are usually paced, often with cars positioned in two lanes side-by-side. Speeds are generally fairly low, often due to the number of cars on the track at the same time. Depending on the track and the number of cars, actually getting a complete lap without coming to a complete stop at some point is rather rare. To be honest, I've done enough of them over the years that I can take them or miss them without much thought.

My guess is "touring laps" are a bit looser with fewer cars and higher speeds. When my Spitfire club did a Mitty a few years ago, they recalled having a great time following the Group 44 GT6 project car.

TED_fiestaHP wrote: While some vintage or older cars can be made into either a track car or vintage race car for a reasonable budget, it could be difficult with a true budget cap. A track day version of the event could be done, but might need a higher budget, maybe $5,000. Not sure if the magazine would want the added risk involved with a low cost track event.

And that sums up the essence of the GRM challenge.

I how to make a vintage Alfa Spider a good challenge car. Did it, including tires, for less than $2k.

In reply to alfadriver:

Kudos to you, alfaD. And I bet you had fun with it post-Challenge dispelling the notion that challenge builds are one trick ponies.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Kudos to you, alfaD. And I bet you had fun with it post-Challenge dispelling the notion that challenge builds are one trick ponies.

LOL! Actually, I sold my challenge car. It wasn't as fast as my GTV was.

I still regret not doing the Jr- but I was still nervous of welding, so it never got off the ground. And when someone presented me with what should have been an EASY button, well, I thought it was the better choice long term. Turned out not to be.

The Spider is up in the Traverse City area of Michigan- and is running and driving, with all of the decals we put on her in 2002.

In reply to alfadriver:

Why would they remove the challenge livery? That would be sacrilege and diminish it's value as a vintage racing icon!

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

They have no idea about it. I sold the car to a women that I met when I was taking a restoration class and she was taking a mechanics class at a local community college. She never got it re-running, and tried to sell car (and if we had the space, we would have gotten it back). It ended up being sold by the storage company after she moved to Mexico with her mom.

I called asking about the car when I saw it was for sale- and it was pretty clear they had no idea on the history. I even told them that I know much it's actually worth, since I built the car.

It's neat to see it, and great to see it running.