SCCA Production racing

The SCCA Production classes have always evolved--from pretty much stock cars in the '60s to flared, radical racers in the '80s and '90s to, well, dwindling fields. There's currently just three classes, E, F and H Production, and newer cars have been added to the mix to bolster the ranks.

Things were interesting at last weekend's SCCA Runoffs. An Acura Integra won G Production, and a Honda CRX took H Production. E Production, the last race of the weekend, featured a ton of Mazdas. The winner? Triumph TR6.

David, did Sam Halkias finallly win one? I know Fletcher Williams personally, and I know he switched to a tube-frame Nissan in the late-1990s.

Fletcher did take one in his TR-6, back when the Runoffs were in Atlanta, but the thing was just a "fuse" that burned for the length of the race. IIRC, he took his Victory Lap on the back of a flatbed..

Sam and crew made a brilliant strategy call on the grid, switching to full wets. It started pouring on he pace lap, and the top 5 guys were on drys or intermediates. Sam came from 10th, and ran away with it.. finishing 15sec ahead of 2nd and lapped up to 11th. He had to work for it though, as a RX3 starting in 6th was on full wets too.

The FP was incredible. Eric Prill posted his in-car from his Super 7 http://www.vimeo.com/6840209

F Prod was an awesome race, and the mix was great, too: Acura vs. Super 7 vs. Miata. It was also nice to see Eric podium.

Clearly the TR-6 won because of it's superior technology!

or the rain tires..... I guess that may have had something to do with it.

nah, it was the superior design!

In reply to David S. Wallens:

Is there an online resource defining both classes and acceptable modifications ? I attended Coronado speed week last weekend. They divided into 9 classes of vintage racing that were probably only slightly in line with SCCA. I saw a Morgan take second behind a Corvette ? I also saw Corvettes race against Tigers, Cobras, Mustangs which is pretty much what I would expect. I saw 911 Porsches in several groups. I'd love to learn more. None of these cars seemed to have much in common with their street cousins anyway. Which suspension/steering/engine/trans mods are acceptable and which aren't ?

Steve

For current SCCA racing, it's all in their rulebook: http://www.scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=44

Note that it's not exactly light reading.

For vintage and historic racing, you usually need to go to that sanctioning body's Web site. Most use SCCA, IMSA and/or FIA rules from a particular time--for example, SVRA Group 1 rules are here: http://www.svra.com/SVRA/SVRAHome.nsf/attachmentweb/EJEN-5ZGG2W/$file/Group+1+Regulations.pdf?OpenElement

(Again, this might not exactly represent light reading.)

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask. It can be a complicated topic. (Plus it's been a long week and I'm heading up to bed.)

I still race my 63 Spitfire in SCCA H prod, won the Northeast regional SCCA (NARRC) championship with it last year and tied for 1st this year. It's only a regional car, not a national because I still do vintage racing with it and can't prep it to the standard I would need to be nationally competitive. While a newer car my be inherently a better vehicle there's a lot to be said for 40 years of refinement on a classic.

mike

There is a reason why the SCCA production classes are dying and vintage racing is thriving... Stupidity. Interest in the production and GT classes went over a cliff when the almighty SCCA began allowing tube frame cars into the GT classes. Club racing suddenly became rich guy racing. Thank God for guys like Hardy Prentiss and Ken Prather... Those were actual sports cars and actual sports car drivers/tuners. Right around then Nick Craw and his minions decided that it was more important to race mini trucks rather than sports cars. Remember that in the world according to Nick "mini trucks are the sports cars of the future"... Yeah ummm, how'd that work for ya, Nick? That's why so many talented racers like Steve Smith walked away from the SCCA. I followed Steve out the door... Neither of us has ever looked back. Cheers, Scott

You can't forget the impact Miatas have had to SCCA racing too. Although they're technically not prod class racers but a spec class, substitute triumph/MG/Fiat that were prod class in the day and you have the prod racers of today. The little cars are too good, they destroyed the production classes just like the Porsche 962 did to GTP and the Audi's did to ALMS.

For about the same money as a good prod car you can run a spec Miata, buy tons of performance parts and go racing. When something breaks spares are in every parts store and junkyard. Only a crazy person would want to put the time and money into a prod car today, or someone who wants to travel outside the herd.

Moo

mike

I don't think I'd say that Spec Miata destroyed the Production classes. I think the issues started before Spec Miata got going. The Miata did help usher in the Limited Prep rules for the Prod classes, though. If anything, maybe that helped put the genie back in the bottle.

The LimitedPrep is also allowing IT racers to "upgrade" their cars to Production ,too. While I like watching the traditional Prod cars, it's also interesting to watch a greater variety of cars due to LimitedPrep rules. A lot of IT cars are now 20-25 years old, so not much different than someone building a Sprite, Triumph or MGB back in the day. To my sons,aged 21 and 24, a 1980 GTI IS an old car. A Bugeye is a museum piece to them and more appropriate at a vintage race. And, I agree with the comment about tube-frame cars. I know a couple of people who have taken IT cars to GTL spec and are competitive at the club level, but couldn't be at the national level.

And,another thing........ I think you will see SpecMiata wain a little in years to come as the people in it today get the bug to modify their cars more. I ran my SpecMiata for 2 seasons and my interest level fell off somewhat. Partly because I missed the constant tweeking I used to do to my ITB GTI. Alot of Miatas (and other "modern" cars)are going to start showing up in other classes, so the difficulty SCCA will face is in how to allow that to happen without obsoleting the traditional stalwart cars in the classes affected.Neither can they afford to create new classes because class proliferation just means reduced class sizes. Limited Prep is a good start in Production, but they'll have to figure out reasonable ways to equalize older and newer vehicles.Eventually no amount of equalizing can keep some vehicles from becoming uncompetitive.

That is true, somehow you need to equalize the cars--never mind consider the different driver talents. (What? They're not all equal?)

G Production qualifying times from this year's Runoffs:

Spitfire: 2:31.668

Miata: 2:33.594

Miata: 2:34.028

Integra: 2:34.048

Super 7: 2:34.122

Integra: 2:34.178

Miata: 2:35.183

Elva Courier: 2:35.258

Sprite: 2:37.077

Datsun SPL 311: 2:37.496

That would suggest that they're doing a pretty reasonable job of equalizing, but still have a little way to go.Without looking at who was driving,1.6 seconds covers the Miatas. That's a normal spread for a SpecMiata grid where I come from.Aside from the Spitfire it's a pretty even grid. With more data to even out some of the driver variation it would be possible to tweek the Limited Prep rules to get it closer, if need be. To me , the real beauty of LimitedPrep is it should be doable on a reasonable budget. Yuo still can spend a lot of money on the rest of the car, but the engine work ought to be limited by the breathing ability of the head. The rules allow a lot of expensive internal engine work ($$$$$) but I wonder when you begin to spend money for no real return because of the head.

It seems SCCA has shrinking fields mostly due to their own rule making, political and marketing choices. Back in the day, SCCA was pretty much the "only race game in town". That is simply not true anymore. IMSA was one of the first to breakaway from the SCCA due to dis-agreements with the way SCCA ran races. CSRG, NASA, 24 Hours of LeMons, Hooked on Driving are just a few alternative race venues available to car folks who wants to race or just have track time. All have reduced the field sizes in SCCA for the simple reason, these race track venues are a better alternative to what SCCA has to offer.

Equalization rules are never truly fair or equal. They are almost always politically and marketing driven. Example, if a Triumph TR6 was forced to use all stock parts such as front axles, rear hubs, differential mounts, lower front A arm mounts, clutch and etc.. the car would not survive the rigors of SCCA racing for very long. To believe a TR6 is ready to race as delivered with only safety requirements added is plain folly. It is due to the way SCCA rules are written along with the marketing forces driven by British Leyland from years ago that allowed the TR6 to be competitive to this very day. If not for the passionate and inventive thinking of Kas Kastner, Triumphs would not have been as competitive as they were.

Triumph had to do well at these races due to the majority of their two seaters were being sold here and marketing image is imperative to their ability to sell cars in the US.

There have been a number of Brit cars run at 24 Hours of LeMons, the vast majority have not fared well under these endurance races. Unlike SCCA events where races are typically 30 to 40 minutes long, LeMons races are anywhere from 12 to 24 hours long. If TR6 fans truly believe this car is as rugged, durable and competitive as it is perceived to be, a team should field a stock TR6 in any LeMons race.

For whatever reason, just about everything in the Production classes gets some kind of allowance or limitation. If it was a spec class, then it would be kind of boring, right?

Production class racing is form of marketing and advertising plain and simple. To quote from an article written by Mike Cook (Advertising Manager for Triumph) in the Aug 2009 issue of TVR regarding Bob Tullis , "He was not only a winner behind the wheel but his unique approach to product marketing through racing was successful and has been copied ever since."

Nuff said about how Triumph used SCCA to market their cars in the US.

Would you consider spec Miata, Star Mazda, IRL, formula 3, Formula Renault and many other classes of identical production race cars boring on identical tires and wheels? These racing series are focused on drivers and driver development, not advertising and marketing of a specific brand. Many times, the performance of any car is driver limited and great drivers can drive just about any car on it's limits. Great racing is more a mind game than simply going "fast".

Much of my protest and complaint is about the facade of marketing a product with less actual content that product actually offered and contained (in this case the TR6) -vs- the hard truth and reality of what that product really is. This is how marketing and advertising works, much like those diet pills that promise quick results and only fatten the bank accounts of the folks who foist this stuff and reduce the weight of the diet pill buyers wallet.

Okay, a question. What's your feeling about today's NASCAR. Is it a marketing facade or spec racing?

NASCAR has become more about marketing than production based race cars. The car bodies are highly regulated as to what the aerodynamics are to be. Chassis are in many ways similar, even engines are similar.

Spec racing... no?

NASCAR has produced some very exciting racing moments regardless. Montoya, ex F1 driver has grown to like NASCAR. He believes driver skill and luck plays a significant part of winning in NASCAR. In F1, winning is not possible with less than the very best car and team to support the driver.

The current controversy in NASCAR is about how some teams park their cars after qualifying and collect subsidies rather than go racing. This practice has become a money maker for some team/car owners.

David S. Wallens wrote: Okay, a question. What's your feeling about today's NASCAR. Is it a marketing facade or spec racing?

I think it's been a marketing facade ever since the factories first entered it. It's gotten closer too a "spec" over the years. The only thing not keeping it a spec is that no one manufacturer is a supplier (except Goodyear) for a certain product of the car. Despite VERY restrictive rules, there is still enough variations within those rules to keep it from being an absolute spec class. However as teams and engine builders merge you will see less variation and it will become more of a spec series.

Hence Dale Jr.

Used to be a fan, but dude just can't drive. His 3 team mates are kicking butt and with equal kit he's a back runner.

Monkeywrench wrote: Sam and crew made a brilliant strategy call on the grid, switching to full wets. It started pouring on he pace lap, and the top 5 guys were on drys or intermediates. Sam came from 10th, and ran away with it.. finishing 15sec ahead of 2nd and lapped up to 11th. He had to work for it though, as a RX3 starting in 6th was on full wets too.

Fantastic news about Halkias! I actually spent some time fooling around on the internet, and found speedcast.com's video of the race. I still recall him busting backside when the Runoffs were in Atlanta.

On a side note, I also saw my old buddy Sam Moore running a Z3. He didn't do too well, but he was "Jack the Bear" in a Volvo back when I ran ITB. I also tried to lend him a little help at Mid Ohio one year back when American Sedan was a "new" nat'l class. IIRC, it was his first time trying to move from Regional to National racing. I just went to spectate, but caught up in a lil' SEDIV Spirit when I saw a few of my old Corner Worker buddies crewing for him (they were NCR, I'm ATL, but regions in the SEDIV were a lot closer back then).

IIRC, we ran as high as third, and were running about 5th when something like a Panhard rod (the car was the Pontiac Firebird on the same chassis as the 3rd gen Camaro) or something broke, and the car ended up in China Beach.

Monkeywrench wrote: The FP was incredible. Eric Prill posted his in-car from his Super 7 http://www.vimeo.com/6840209

I'll have to check that one out. I'm old enough to remember when in-car footage was rare. I still just can't get enough of it, even though it's common nowdays..

David S. Wallens wrote: That is true, somehow you need to equalize the cars--never mind consider the different driver talents. (What? They're not all equal?) G Production qualifying times from this year's Runoffs: Spitfire: 2:31.668 Miata: 2:33.594 Miata: 2:34.028 Integra: 2:34.048 Super 7: 2:34.122 Integra: 2:34.178 Miata: 2:35.183 Elva Courier: 2:35.258 Sprite: 2:37.077 Datsun SPL 311: 2:37.496

David, I just realized that I brought this thread back from the dead..and I apologize for the troll-like behavior.

That being said, the topic interests me.

IIRC, the modern ("tin-top", except for the Miata) cars allowed in SCCA Production aren't allowed the same level of preparation as the older cars (again IIRC, they're even called "limited preparation" in the GCR). IMO, this was done at the time to insure that thousands of dollars of members' equipment didn't go obsolete overnight (including many of our then-current National licence holders -wink-). I still think that a "modern" car prepared to the full limit of the rules allowed for all the wonderful cars of my youth would absolutely spank them. Adam Malley's Honda was proof enough of that for me...-grin-

Adam Malley's car was a 2nd Gen Civic.. not exactly modern. It was pretty much in the same "name" as Chuck Mathis' VW Rabbit.

You also have to keep in mind, with the LP ruleset, you're seeing Improved Touring and Spec Miata racers move into the production ranks. These guys are used to racing wheel to wheel HARD at every race they show up to. Not only are these drivers fast, but they have the race craft that some of the long-time prod class racers don't have (most of these them run by themselves during the season).

National racing is dying too. Up here in the Northeast, the competition is tougher (drivers and car prep) in the regional IT and SM ranks than National Production, most of GT, and SM. There are lots of guys collecting trophies at nationals who would get smoked if they showed up in one of those classes at a regional.

You're buddy Sam might have made it interesting if it was dry. That Z3 has some serious straight-line scoot