So, what's wrong with Spitfires?

Hi, guys.

I've been looking to buy a British roadster. I've already got a reliable daily driver (2010 BMW 335xi) and race car (Benz 190E 2.3-16), so this would be a project car and weekend toy. Maybe the occasional road rally, hill climb, or track day.

I was looking at the Triumph TR6 because there's just something about them that I've always been attracted to since I was a kid. Especially in that yummy shade of blue. But I keep coming across Spitfires. Loads and loads of them. And all for much less money than other British roadsters.

I honestly had never considered a Spitfire before, but I'm finding myself drawn to them. Nice lines. Cool clamshell front end. Independent rear suspension. Light weight. Next weekend, I'm going to look at a 1.5L version with OD trans that's fairly local.

I guess I'm just wondering ... what's the catch? Why so much cheaper than other British sportscars?

Ohh, lots of reasons. They were cheap new so are plentiful. Build quality is abysmal. Frame is weird and not terribly rigid. Tiny, weak differential and equally weak U-joints that require frequent replacement. Engine nowhere as durable as a comparable MG/Austin unit. Cramped cockpit with no crash protection to speak of. Horrendously rust-prone.

With all that negativity, I still like them. They are a good looking car, and that clamshell hood screams XKE and makes normal servicing a breeze. I really, really tried to like them but for the money I think a Sprite/Midget is a better car in many ways.

But here's the other thing: for not a lot more money you can buy a much better car. MGB, Fiat 124, Datsun 1600, Sunbeam Alpine, etc. Bigger, more powerful (those little roadsters aren't fast) and arguably easier to work on.

Then I get to that point and go "Why don't I just buy a Miata?"

You should buy what really trips your trigger, not what is 'convenient'. Lots of pitfalls to owning an old British (or Italian) roadster. If you don't absolutely adore looking at it and driving it you'll quickly become frustrated. My uncle lusted for a TR6 for years. Bought a really nice one and still had to spend money on it keeping it going. He got tired of that and gave it up for a BMW roadster.

You'll find a lot of people here that are Spitfire fans. They're great, affordable vintage British sports cars. They require no more maintenance than any other make or model. The axles and U-joints only are a problem if you race or autocross frequently. Although the rear hubs can be difficult to remove if you need to replace a bearing or seal. There's a special too for that but hard to find. There are a lot of Spits out there to choose from. So buy one, join a club, and have fun.

Enough with the "build quality" on a 40 year old car. They may have been poorly constructed at the factory, but if they are still around 40 years later, every loose nut, poor fitting gap, etc. has been fixed or tweeked. If you want to say the design was e36m3, then I can't argue with you over that. Most people seem to think, you are getting an easy to work on fairly well thought out car for the money. They are fun and they are cheap compared to the TR6. That funky rear suspension and front bonnet shake give you the sensation that you are going much faster than you really are.

They're fun cars, although up here you can get an MGB for the same money.

The spits rear suspension is one of the few in which I don't consider IRS an upgrade from a stick axle. That swing axle is notorious for "jacking"

You can tame it with camber compensators, droop limit straps or sway bars though.

I've had at least a dozen Spitfires in various stages of repair.

Spits fall into three categories: 1) the early 1962-1970 Mk I/II/III 2) the 1971-1974 Mk IV 3) the 1500 cars (actually 1974 1/2- up).

The Mk I-III cars are the ones with the 'jacking' problem as shown above. In 1971, Triumph changed things around a bit to come up with the 'swing spring' design (most of that was a wider rear track) and are not as prone to the 'stinkbug' attitude. IMHO the Mk IV is the one to have, it's nearly as light as the Mk I-III and has better interior etc. although again IMHO the 1968-1970 Mk III is the best looking one. 1500's got heavy with the big bumpers and etc but are still surprisingly light.

There's a bunch of swappability of parts back and forth, for instance a 1500 motor will drop right into a '62 chassis with only minor changes, this means there's a ton of parts out there. GT6 brakes are a popular upgrade, although the supply of those cars as parts donors seems to be drying up as more people restore them rather than part them out.

1500's were known for breaking crankshafts, I would venture to guess that the engines which were going to do that have already done so and are now pretty much out of the gene pool.

They are cheap and a lot of fun.

There is a special place in my heart for Spitfires as my first sports car was a 68 Mk. III which I later converted to a race car.

Do a google. there are some hard core forums dedicated to these cars.

The worst features to me are they like to rust badly if left outside and the engine is prone to dropping thrust washers which will ruin the crank quickly. The 1500 engine has the most torque, but doesn't like to rev as much as the 1147 or 1296cc engines. Only the 79 and 80 year model 1500s had the big heavy bumpers. A camber compensator will fix the ills of the early swing axle cars or you can retro fit the later swing spring (started with the Mk IV) to the earlier cars and do about the same.

The asking prices on these cars have gone up quite a bit over the past couple of years. I do not know what the selling prices are. You used to be able to buy a very nice one for $3,000.

To me the best Spitfire would be a Mk III with the small journal 1296 and the later folding top set up. I like the round tails better than the square tails, but have one of each.

The very nice ones that were available for $3K a few years ago are now advertised at $5-6K (Mk 4 and 1500 models) at least here in the Northeast. Recently there was a '68 Mk 3 advertised for $8,900 and a '65 Mk 2 advertised for $13,500 on the Boston area CL. They looked like very nice cars, but that's crazy money for round tail Spitfires! They're both gone from CL, but I doubt that's because they sold.

Typical example:

https://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5074176755.html

Personally I think they are pretty cool. I think any mention of rust is pretty irrelevant at this point. That's going to vary car by car regardless of model. I think if given the choice between that and an mg-b I'd go spitfire everytime. MG-B's seem much more common to me.

On Datsun1200.com we have a couple of members running Spitfires with Datsun A series motors. The A12 to A15 engines are 30lbs lighter and in moderate trim will make 90-100 HP. You just need to find an 80s 210 or 310, these have an 1500cc motor that in street trim can be revved to 7800 rpms and they have a 5 speed overdrive tranny. They rust ferociously so they can be had fairly easily.

  Tom

I had Spitfire-itis, but then it was in remission. This year it has come back, as I dragged home first a 1970 and then just this week, a 1980 model. I have some pretty damned nice cars in my garage, but I still love Triumph Spitfires. This latest one has 30,000 miles and overdrive, is a nice, and I mean really nice driver, has a Weber DCOE sidedraft carb, Spax suspension and has had the interior cleaned up and I still paid less than $5000 for it and that was through a high end classic car dealer. Spitfire are still the best bang for the buck in our hobby.

Gary wrote: The very nice ones that were available for $3K a few years ago are now advertised at $5-6K (Mk 4 and 1500 models) at least here in the Northeast. Recently there was a '68 Mk 3 advertised for $8,900 and a '65 Mk 2 advertised for $13,500 on the Boston area CL. They looked like very nice cars, but that's crazy money for round tail Spitfires! They're both gone from CL, but I doubt that's because they sold. Typical example: https://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5074176755.html

Five months later, there's still nothing wrong with Spitfires, but they're just not selling too well here in Southern New England. For example, a nice early seventies model that advertised for $6K in June is now $4K:

https://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5260862844.html

And a very nice two-owner '68 Mk3 that was $8,900 in June is now $5,900:

https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/cto/5270465104.html

I'm sure it's seasonal, and with winter approaching the sellers are motivated. Their heavy discounts are bringing the prices back to realistic levels. (I like the '68, and pretty sure the owner would accept even less, but I already have one, and don't have any place to put another one).

If you go look at Spitfires, bring a pry bar with you. Stick it behind the harmonic balancer and try to push it forward. If it moves, the thrust bearing is gone and you're looking at new bearings plus possible crank repair. If it's got a bazillion miles on it, you're going through the motor anyway. If you were hoping to avoid that for awhile, look at another Spitfire.

Some motors will go over 100,000 niles and crank thrust will still be within spec. Others have the thrust bearing actually fall out at less than 50,000 miles.

In reply to Jerry From LA:

I agree, but here in the Northeast, if you can find a good body (wouldn't we all ), then the powertrain is secondary. Around here, mechanicals are easy to fix. Sheet metal is more expensive.

Absolutely but body damage /rust is relatively easy to spot. I'm working the lesser-known side of the street where potentially fatal damage may be hidden.

Also, I was born in New Haven and lived in CT and MA for 32 years. I know from rust.

I really love the styling a LOT ! Never had one, would buy one if I found a nice one. Of course a GT6 would be my first choice, but then I'd probably rather go for my dream car, a TVR, when all was said and done.

Never ends, does it?

In reply to TeamEvil:

"a GT6 would be my first choice"

Mine also, until the first hot summer day. I've always loved the look of the GT6 but they're not ventilated very well.

I never owned a Spitfire but during the parts search for my other cars I relatively often get in contact with Spitfire specialists such as http://www.jigsawracingservices.co.uk

A big plus for the Spitfires is the availability of standard- and performance parts. In England is a really active racing group which specialized in Spitfires. Working on the engine seams also really easy because the complete engine bay is easily accessible.

Jerry From LA wrote: If you go look at Spitfires, bring a pry bar with you. Stick it behind the harmonic balancer and try to push it forward. If it moves, the thrust bearing is gone and you're looking at new bearings plus possible crank repair. If it's got a bazillion miles on it, you're going through the motor anyway. If you were hoping to avoid that for awhile, look at another Spitfire. Some motors will go over 100,000 niles and crank thrust will still be within spec. Others have the thrust bearing actually fall out at less than 50,000 miles.

No need for the crowbar, just push the clutch pedal in while someone watches the balancer. If it moves it is bad.

Cars of this era did not do 100k. If they had 60k, they were pretty much geriatric.

Gary wrote:

Gary wrote: The very nice ones that were available for $3K a few years ago are now advertised at $5-6K (Mk 4 and 1500 models) at least here in the Northeast. Recently there was a '68 Mk 3 advertised for $8,900 and a '65 Mk 2 advertised for $13,500 on the Boston area CL. They looked like very nice cars, but that's crazy money for round tail Spitfires! They're both gone from CL, but I doubt that's because they sold. Typical example: https://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5074176755.html

Five months later, there's still nothing wrong with Spitfires, but they're just not selling too well here in Southern New England. For example, a nice early seventies model that advertised for $6K in June is now $4K: https://providence.craigslist.org/cto/5260862844.html And a very nice two-owner '68 Mk3 that was $8,900 in June is now $5,900: https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/cto/5270465104.html I'm sure it's seasonal, and with winter approaching the sellers are motivated. Their heavy discounts are bringing the prices back to realistic levels. (I like the '68, and pretty sure the owner would accept even less, but I already have one, and don't have any place to put another one).

It's baaack. This one originally hit CL about a year ago for $6K. Never sold. By November it was listed at $4K. Didn't sell then either. Now it's back on CL for $3,500. I'll bet this one could be bought for a lot less than that. There's nothing wrong with Spitfires but they just don't seem to be selling here in Southern New England.

WWMAGA

In reply to Gary:

The "Needs a little TLC" comment always concerns me, but it's possible that's exactly what the seller means. It certainly looks clean from the limited pics, and if it's a good solid car without any significant/urgent needs, I can't imagine it being worth any less than that, ever.

I've never owned one. I've been in a few. Cowl shake over railroad tracks or pot holes was pretty severe. I've always wanted a Jensen Healy, but they are nearly as bad in that area by my (limited) experience.

Spitfires are cheap and easy to work on as well.