This week's poll- 2/21/11

My favorite "other" muscle car: Studebaker Gran Turismo Hawk.

In the other "muscle car" catagory, I once drove a '64 Valiant with a 340. It was actually a really nice driving car, probably one of the best done muscle cars I've been in.

In reply to racerdave600:

That would be a hot rod, not a muscle car, since the 340 wasn't even around in '64.
Even if it was a factory installation, it would be a pony car, not a muscle car, which by definition is a large engine in an intermediate body. The 340 isn't a large engine and the Valiant was a compact car. That said, I once put a 340 into a plane jane '69 Valiant, and it was a hoot.

Tom Heath wrote: I love seeing the trends in these poll results. Usually the results seem similar to either the collector market values or on-track performance potential. Next up is a request for favorite "other" muscle car. Nominations will include stuff like the Chevy II / Nova, AMC Javelin, Dodge Dart, etc... If any of you have a great poll idea, click here to send me an email. I love requests!

If you are going to do a poll on Muscle cars, please make sure what you post are actual Muscle cars, or do a poll that also includes Pony cars. The Chevy II/Nova, Dart, Valiant, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Cuda, Falcon, Javelin, Firebird, AMX etc.. are pony cars, not Muscle Cars, no matter what engine they came with.

Bravenrace,

I think you're being a bit rigid in your definition of muscle cars. There's more than one way to define them. Biggish engine, smallish car. This is supposed to be fun!

I would agree. While not all muscle cars are pony cars, if equiped with a V8 all pony cars are muscle cars.

In reply to lasttr:

It's not my opinion. That's the way they are catagorized. Do your own research and you will find the same.

In reply to Ian F:

No, that's not correct. For those of us that are true muscle car enthusiasts, this distinction is common knowledge. Muscle car and pony car are two different catagories of vehicles. I guess you don't believe me, so I found a reference for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car

Scroll down far enough and you will even find a table that lists what is a pony car and what is a muscle car. Any knowledgable muscle car enthusiast will tell you the same thing.

I'm with bravenrace on this one. Muscle cars were full- or mid-sized models with big block engines: GTO, Charger, SS396 Chevelle, Road Runner, etc.

Pony cars were distinct smaller models designed to be sporty: Mustang, Cougar, Camaro, Firebird, Javelin, AMX, the later generation of Barracuda, Challenger. Some had big block engines, but that did not make them muscle cars.

Economy cars equipped with V8 engines are neither muscle cars nor pony cars -- I don't remember those ever having a particular name associated with them.

I wasn't going to cite Wikipedia, but since you did, I will, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car

"Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster definition is more limiting, any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving. [2] The term generally refers to 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars, and sometimes full-size cars equipped with large, powerful, V8s, and sold at an affordable price for street use and both formal and informal drag racing."

It says "2-door," "powerful engine," and "generally refers to mid-size cars." I don't see that either of these definitions necessarily excludes something like a big-block Camaro, though I tend to agree that a small-block Camaro is not a muscle car.

In reply to lasttr:

Did you look at the chart in my link to wikipedia? It lists what is a pony car and what is a muscle car. Notice that the pony cars listed are smaller, usually unibody cars, most having small block engines. The muscle cars are mostly full frame intermediate cars with mostly big block engines. Certainly this list doesn't cover all vehicles in each classification, but it clearly shows which catagory each type of car falls into.

Bravenrace,

I read your article, I read the Muscle Car article. I looked at the chart. There are a lot of "mostlys" and "generallys." I don't know that Wikipedia is necessarily the ultimate authority, either, but also from that source:

"According to the June 1967 issue of Road Test magazine, a "muscle car" is "Exactly what the name implies. It is a product of the American car industry adhering to the hot rodder's philosophy of taking a small car and putting a BIG engine in it. The Muscle Car is Charles Atlas kicking sand in the face of the 98 hp (73 kW) weakling."[7] Author of the book Muscle Cars the quote is drawn from, Peter Henshaw, furthers that the muscle car was designed for straight-line speed, and did not have the "sophisticated chassis", "engineering integrity" or "lithe appearance" of European high-performance cars[7] However, opinions vary as to whether high-performance full-size cars, compacts, and pony cars qualify as muscle cars."

If you don't agree with some nominations in the poll, don't limit the choices; vote for the one you do like. This is supposed to be fun!

I try to keep up with the latest definitions, but the line here is still fuzzy in my mind.

If you're really into classifying every possible iteration of the V8, RWD, Sport-focused car formula, here's a pretty good set of criteria that I found. (Not that I completely agree, but it's a starting point.)

Click to see it for yourself at muscle car club.com.

Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:
A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.
Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO

Fullsize Muscle Car:
The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.
Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.

Pony Cars and Compact Cars:
In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.
Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.

Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:
Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.
Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.

Two Seat Sports Cars:
Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.

Whoa, everyone!

Wikipedia or not, this is supposed to a good time, not an exercise in the minutia of chronology and semantics. Can I put a little less serious perspective on it:

In the early 70's when I drove a Koni and Pirelli-equipped '69 Boss 302 'Pony Car', the thing was a hoot on twisty backroads and truly seemed to have a bit of 'muscle' in it at about 6000 rpm as I looked for 2nd and 3rd gear corners. However, if I was outdragged at a light by an SS396 big block Camaro, I would have been 'muscled' out of the way.

We called them 'Pony Cars' AND 'Muscle Cars' - even in 1972. I was there, we had fun, and it's not worth the argument.

Dave

Tom Heath wrote: I try to keep up with the latest definitions, but the line here is still fuzzy in my mind. If you're really into classifying every possible iteration of the V8, RWD, Sport-focused car formula, here's a pretty good set of criteria that I found. (Not that I completely agree, but it's a starting point.) Click to see it for yourself at muscle car club.com. Strict Definition of a Muscle Car: A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on. Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO Fullsize Muscle Car: The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars. Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc. Pony Cars and Compact Cars: In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options. Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc. Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars: Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars. Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc. Two Seat Sports Cars: Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car. Examples: AMC AMX, etc.

That sounds like exactly what I already said. And Dave, no offense, but what you called them isn't necessarily correct. Everyone has there own idea of what car is or is not a muscle car, but the fact is that as it relates to the 60's cars, it's actually well defined as Tom pointed out, and there really isn't any need to debate it.

Tom also points out that he doesn't completely agree with this criteria. There will always be a need to debate it; there is no one correct answer. This is supposed to be fun! And Tom's request was for "favorite 'other muscle car'... Chevy II/Nova, AMC Javelin, Dodge Dart, etc...."

Considering that even the source I quoted acknowledges the terms weren't popularized until the 70s, I can completely understand people having different takes on it. Even if there is a "correct" answer here in the 21st century.

Whatever they're called, I think Dave makes an excellent point when he said-
Wikipedia or not, this is supposed to a good time, not an exercise in the minutia of chronology and semantics.

I'm hoping the "other" modifier will make the question understandable on all levels; they aren't really muscle cars, they're also-rans that fit a similar formula.

I think fun here is the point. By strict definition many of the cars we talk about aren't sports cars either, but who really cares. Also, I used quotes around muscle cars because I knew it wasn't in the strictest definition, but it was to me.

Just for the record, guys, I am having fun! Aren't you?
But really, we're car guys. Let 's not worry about being accurate when it comes to cars, right?

Muscle Cars=Sloppy American cars with V-8s or V-6s.

eg. "Oh yeah, I know the Tempest. Isnt that a muscle car with a V-6?"

Next question.

Leo

In reply to Leo Basile:

Snob.
Big words from a guy with a wooden car...