A 1963 Sunbeam Alpine GT is for sale local to me. I've always liked the funky looks of these cars, but don't really know much about them. How do these cars compare to an MGB? Is there anything I should be aware of or look out for if I go take a look at it?
My first car was a ‘61 Series II Alpine. I wanted a sports car badly and I bought it because I could afford it. Used Alpines were cheaper than used TR3s and MGBs back then. I paid $400 for it in ’66. For some reason in the sixties the Alpine didn’t get the same respect as an MG or Triumph but they did well at the track. Good competition heritage. They have a pretty good following today and parts are available. The 1592cc engine was strong and the dual down draft Zenith carbs had accelerator pumps (unlike SUs). Handling was a little soft, but was OK for me at the time. It was my first car and what did I know? But I learned to take the engine apart and put it back together (and it ran when I put it back together). Mine was a roadster with a removable hardtop. Looked nice until the rust started. It was 5 years old when I bought it but it started rusting heavily by the second or third year I owned it. So watch out for rust. I’ve heard that with the unibody construction it’s more difficult to repair the rust, although I can’t personally confirm that. I sold mine in the 80s with a parts car for $500 and it was a total rust bucket by then. Is the car you’re looking at a Harrington LeMans GT? If it is it’s a rare model.
I think it is just a run of the mill Alpine, but in the GT trim level (factory hard top, wood interior trim, carpet, etc.) based on my limitted research. The ad doesn't say much. It's one of those cars that I think look neat, but I'm really not sure if it would be worth owning or not. I really want a Tiger, but those are big money compared to the Alpine.
Plonk a Ford 260 or 289 in it and make a Tiger out of it!
Dave
DneprDave wrote: Plonk a Ford 260 or 289 in it and make a Tiger out of it! Dave
An engine swap does not a Tiger make.
I bought the Tiger first and would love a series 3 Alpine next.
I thought someone would complain about my statement. Of course it's not a real Tiger, but its close enough, if it's the performance you're after. There are hundreds of '69 Z-28 Camaros out there that aren't real Z-28s, unless you are going to sell it as a real Z-28, WHO CARES!
Dave
you might consider a small import twin cam.... Toyota 4AG is a hearty little engine, and is very compact(about 200#s).
Stock tune they plant 112hp. Depending on mods, they can plant as much as 400hp(heavy boost), or in excess of 200 n/a.
WilD
I'd invite you to add www.saoca.org to your list of sites. Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America. Very supportive group of owners and there's plenty of information. Whether you maintain the car as Stock or choose to join "The Dark Side" and install a Ford V6/T5 powertrain you'll find Sunbeam owners all over the US are pleased to help you with your car. At this moment our annual "Invasion" is going on back east and we're waiting for some postings on the board.
I'm in Arizona. Where are you?
If the body is in good shape and the price is in your range, I say go for it. I think Alpines look great with the removable factory hardtop installed, but I think that about all vintage sports cars that came with factory hard tops anyway. I also think you'd be very happy with the 1592cc stock engine. But if you were inclined to make a swap, the 1725cc engine from the Series V would work well and be relatively easy. Add Webers. Ask Steve Alcala.
and speaking of early series Alpines, take a look at this one that's for sale:
http://www.cooperclassiccars.com/CarPages/62SunbeamAlpine.asp
Beautiful car. But it’s been listed for a long long time so I suspect the price is on the outrageous side.
Alpines are great car. A sort of more comfortable MGB with some interesting styling. I owned one a number of years ago and found it to be a nice driver and a terrific choice for tours and such. The club listed above is a terrific group of people and very helpful. I would go for it. An Alpine is much more rare than an MGB and even in stock form is a fun car to drive.
The body of knowledge exists to make and keep the Alpine in top shape just like the MGB but it is a less common. The weaknesses and their fixes have been all worked out over the years. So there is no downside to ownership but perhaps finding a local expert to service the car. Cheers Ron
WilD,
Me again. When I got my first Alpine I had years of experience with motorcycles but nothing with cars. Thru SAOCA and local members here in Phoenix and Tucson not only did I get key information and tips, but sources of parts and a second set (sometimes 3-4 sets) of extra hands.
Whether you go Alpine or MGB or any other marque, get involved with an owners club. You might visit sites before buying anything and check the tone of each to get a feel where you'd fit.
Should you not pick up this car you mentioned you might post the link in the event someone else might be interested. SAOCAis interested in each car and it's condition. We have a Registry, as do most owners groups.
The Alpines are indeed a nice car, though the styling is more dated that, say, the MGB, and they are a little overweight for the engines they have.
Everyone wants to make a Tiger out of them. If you must do a swap, I second the idea of a Toyota Twin cam and 5 speed.
PS - when the Tiger was new, it had a raging 160 BHP - it was never intended to be a Cobra contender, that was all in the minds of its owners. It WAS intended to compete with other large engined touring cars like the big Healeys.
DneprDave wrote: I thought someone would complain about my statement. Of course it's not a real Tiger, but its close enough, if it's the performance you're after. There are hundreds of '69 Z-28 Camaros out there that aren't real Z-28s, unless you are going to sell it as a real Z-28, WHO CARES! Dave
When they are passed off as the real thing to unknowing buyers I care, and it happens far too often. The Tiger is a great car and the Alpine is a great car. Why create a homemade something in the middle that is a POS with no authenticity ? I am a maintainer of cars not a modifier of cars. If a car is not what you want don't buy it, buy the car you do want.
I apologize for the diversion, but since we have the attention of a few ALpine fans here ... have you noticed lately that most of the Sunbeams listed in classified ads anywhere now are Tigers? A few years ago it was the other way around. There were a helluva lot more Alpines made than Tigers but rarely do I see an Alpine listed for sale these days. Is that because all Alpine owners love theirs and don't want to sell? Or have all the Alpines gone to the crusher? Or have too many of the remaining Alpines been turned into ersatz Tigers with sellers trying to make a quick buck? I actually saw a tall tailfin "Tiger" for sale recently, and I doubt it was the original. (Same goes for early TVRs. Where have all the MGB and Cortina powered TVRs gone? Yet I see a lot of ads selling Griffiths. In fact there are probably more Griffiths for sale today then were actually made originally. A friend of mine sold his MGB powered TVR to an unnamed vintage sports car dealer in Florida a few years ago and a year later I saw that same dealer selling a Griffith that looked suspiciously like my friend's old car. Hmmm).
Gary wrote: I actually saw a tall tailfin "Tiger" for sale recently, and I doubt it was the original.
I seem to see more Alpines but I agree the percentages don't seem right 100,000 Alpines to 7000 Tigers built. They don't appear on Ebay or CL in those same percentages. I think its more likely that restorable Alpines are used as parts cars or just left to rot because the end financial numbers make less sense. Buy a basket case Tiger and spend $50K restoring and you have a $50K car (usually) Buy a basket case Alpine and spend $35K restoring and you have a $12K car.
There never was a finned Tiger, but I'd love a S3 finned Alpine someday.
Steve
Right, there never was an official tall tailfin Tiger in production, but I think the Ken Miles prototype was based on a Series III, wasn't it?
I've seen more Alpines for sale compared to Tigers, at least locally.
Being in Michigan, and never looking at top condition (price) cars, I'm always mostly afraid of rust issues. I'm especially afraid of hidden rust issues becuase I doubt my own abilities to spot cleverly disguised rust buckets. Far too many people seem to "restore" older cars by slapping a few gallons of filler on and painting over everything. That bothers me, as does the rare car counterfitting alluded to above.
In reply to WilD:
Visit the Sunbeam Alpine Owners website indicated to you earlier in this thread. It is a great resource and there are lots of guy who know the car, like to look at cars, and like to help newbies. I gaurantee there is someone near it that would be happy to look it over with you. They can tell you how stock and original the car is as well. As far as Michigan goes the odds of getting rust are higher than California cars thats why the latter sells for more. Get experienced help for an inspection you are correct that you don't want a rusty unibody car. Nobody would counterfit an Alpine, only Tigers need careful inspection for authenticity.
Steve
Gary wrote: Right, there never was an official tall tailfin Tiger in production, but I think the Ken Miles prototype was based on a Series III, wasn't it?
I wasn't including the prototype but Tiger #1 the Miles version was based on an SII Alpine.
http://www.rootes1.com/
Thanks for the clarification Sownman, it's been awhile so I really wasn't sure if the Miles prototype was a Series III.
Incidentally, after I made the statement yesterday about the availability of Alpines vs. Tigers for sale, look what popped up today on my local CL: http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/cto/1724050625.html
Basket case anyone?
From Sownman: "When they are passed off as the real thing to unknowing buyers I care, and it happens far too often. The Tiger is a great car and the Alpine is a great car. Why create a homemade something in the middle that is a POS with no authenticity ? I am a maintainer of cars not a modifier of cars. If a car is not what you want don't buy it, buy the car you do want."
It's great if one can afford and maintain a nice original. If I came across one and had a 4 car garage, I'd own one, whether it be a Tiger, Alpine or Harrington.
I make no attempt to pass my car off as an original. My "Homemade" V6 Alpine (with another one in the making) isn't "authentic" but I can drive it anywhere and enjoy the great handling of the Alpine. The additional performance is a bonus.
Rather than let a good chassis rust/rot away because the engine/trans is shot and too costly to rebuild vs. the return, there are modifications that can be made to keep the Marque visable.
Series6 wrote: It's great if one can afford and maintain a nice original. If I came across one and had a 4 car garage, I'd own one, whether it be a Tiger, Alpine or Harrington. I make no attempt to pass my car off as an original. My "Homemade" V6 Alpine (with another one in the making) isn't "authentic" but I can drive it anywhere and enjoy the great handling of the Alpine. The additional performance is a bonus.
I didn't intend to be as harsh as you seem to have taken me, and my comment was addressed to the concept of "buy an Alpine and make a Tiger out of it" Rather than to the concept of personalization without trying to pass the car off as something else to unsuspecting buyers.
You mention affordibility. How is it cheaper to convert to a V6 than to rebuild the factory engine ? Was there no engine ?
Steve
Hey! I never said to, "Pass the car off a something else to unsuspecting buyers"
Read my post again!
I'm all for putting whatever power train will keep the car on the road!
Dave
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