1000 horsepower junkyard motor builds?

ProDarwin said:

For lemons there is also the issue of making everything else in the car survive that kind of power.  Brakes, tires, differential, axles, etc.  

Brakes , Trans,  rear end, etc only need to deal with the portion of that speed required to get near the front of the pack.  

Prudent racers pace themselves. The throttle pedal has positions other than flat out.  Assuming the average winning Chump car/ LeMons car has 200 horsepower, maybe 300 is used to get to the front pac and then cruise around on 80% of the 200 hp the winner is using. 

Electronic boost control could be helpful there, set the normal boost level to a sustainably low level and set the "scramble" boost mode to increase it to an unsustainably high level for a sustainably short period for passing.

In reply to GameboyRMH : excellent idea  

Why would you want to spend money to fuel a 1000 HP engine in an endurance race?

 

Isn't Lemons supposed to be about covering the most laps with the fewest penalty points? If it was easy to depower for reliability, that seems to make more sense. 

Brett_Murphy said:

Why would you want to spend money to fuel a 1000 HP engine in an endurance race?

 

I don’t need or want 1000 horsepower. I need the knowledge it takes to make it all work,   cheaply.  

EBay will sell turbo chargers unbelievably cheap. Last I looked I could buy a pair of T3’s which should get me all the boost I want for well under $300 I know  how to make the stock manifold flow 60% more with junkyard pieces.  Ignition I’ve got covered.  All I need is a cheap ECM capable of handling 12 injectors.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Didn't Jag themselves run two separate ECMs controlling each bank indepently at one point? 

The pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Isn't Lemons supposed to be about covering the most laps with the fewest penalty points? If it was easy to depower for reliability, that seems to make more sense. 

It’s my understanding that LeMons and Chump car ( Champcar) have different rules.  

The major flaw in Champ Car is the mandatory 5 minute fuel stop.  5 minutes in the pits while more fuel efficient cars are recovering.  

But Champ Car will allow speed additives   like Turbo’s. If you put them on an old enough car there is no penalty.  

Turbo’s are sorta funny.  If you aren’t making boost they don’t hurt fuel mileage.  A little boost is only a little decrease in mileage.  

Fuel if the tank is stock you can have up to 24 gallons of fuel, but using 10-12 gallons an hour means 2 hours or less per tank.  

More fuel efficient cars might only use  3-4 gallons an hour. That means addition track time without refueling.  Without that 5 minute penalty.  

Running in traffic kills fuel mileage. As does flat out racing.  But bigger faster cars don’t have to run flat out and can conserve fuel. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFxcPOhEtk

Junk yard, ring gapped 6.0L with twin VS racing turbos.

wheels777 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFxcPOhEtk

Junk yard, ring gapped 6.0L with twin VS racing turbos.

Once it passes 6 psi the risk of blowing the head gasket increases too much to to make it viable in endurance racing.  But 469 hp should be enough to put the car in front.  Then it can back off enough to run with minimal or no boost. 

I remember a reply eons ago on this forum and the mythical 30 mpg Honda got like 6 or 8 mpg at full race boogie.

YMMV

In reply to Ranger50 : Sounds like it could be right.   

Then what sort of fuel usage would a big engine heavier car get?  

I've done more than a few ~1000 hp junkyard turbo builds.

They'll survive if done right, but not for endurance racing. You'd never be able to use that power endurance racing anyway. Anything over ~650 would require a race dedicated chassis with a roll cage for rigidity, proper suspension, and very expensive tires. Chump/LeMons? Not a chance.

For drag racing and street action, you can usually get 3-5 years out of one if taken care of. People see them and think they are 1-hit wonders that'll only survive a few passes at the track. The first time I did one was in ~2014 or 15 and it still hasn't blown up. The 2nd one was in 2016 (with a couple others that year) that still haven't blown up. All are street driven very very hard with multiple track passes. The block strength, 6-bolt mains, factory forged rods, and relatively short stroke are all big factors. Since nearly every tuning angle has been explored, there is a fairly clear path of what to do and what not to do to keep them alive with timing and fuel. There aren't too many secrets left there anymore.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Ranger50 : Sounds like it could be right.   

Then what sort of fuel usage would a big engine heavier car get?  

 

https://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=16336

Hey frenchyd.  Glad you have your creative juices flowing.  Just START building.  Get back in the flow, and you'll see the fun you've been missing. 

My experience with an originally NA motor on track with boost has been that boost is a fickle mistress but if you tickle her fancy just so, can be incredibly rewarding.

I think it probably cannot be overstated enough how much heat you need to shed, especially for an endurance race. The cooling system in my car will not even get up to target operating temp (180 water, 200 oil) during normal street driving however on track it can only survive 2-4 laps depending on the track and weather before water temps are 220 and oil is nearing 300.

One caveat to that I've found is that shifting 500rpm lower seems to keep temps in check so much so that I can run the car on track until I'm out of fuel. 

Another thought, since it sort of seems as though you intend to use boost as sort of a "Scramble/DRS" option. 

Assuming the car you are using already has a cooling system which can survive an endurance race, could it be possible to build the turbo system as a "stand alone" system? I'm envisioning something where you use those electronic exhaust cutout valves, one valve on the exhaust, one on the intake. 

when 1 set of valves is flipped the car routes exhaust through the turbo and air into the intake from the turbo (skip the intercooler which will just block your other heat exchangers, you're just using it for occasional pulls) when you release the scramble button the valves close and exhaust goes through a bypass around the turbo. and the intake manifold draws air directly.

while you're wiring stuff up to the switch, have a complete seperate ecu/fuel pump/injector set for the turbo setup. when switch is pressed the car runs off that, when you let go of the switch it runs off the other set!

In reply to Dirtydog :

I have too many low compression V12’s  sitting around. The system could be nearly 45 years old  and there is no plug in diagnoses. Plus not a single microchip, it’s all totally analog. 

While I’ve figured out how it works, I have no idea of how Long it will work.  Taking something like that endurance racing is just plain nuts.  

The later “HE” engines run an intentionally lean stratified charge  engine that the moment a cylinder or two gets a plugged injector or some issue it wants to blow the head gasket.  A really fast job takes 6-8 hours. 

  I can retrofit carbs on but then I’m working with 242  horsepower when brand new and sitting around for 3-4 decades isn’t going to improve on that. Not to mention that when new  magazine testing yielded single digit fuel mileage.  

242 horsepower with 3000+ pounds and lousy fuel mileage, how many co-drivers would sign up for that?  

No somehow  I need to add boost ( compression is only 7.8-1 )  and yet use a reliable ECM.  

Something like that  would be attractive enough to get the co-drivers required. 

As far as dumping  heat.  The stock radiator is really good and I’ve got 3 good ones. Plus an aluminum one.  The reason they have problems is there is so much luxury junk stuffed under the hood, no air  can get through.  Freed of the A/C , air pump, that ambulance sized alternator, cruise control, battery,  HVAC  stuff,  plus some simple mods to get the coolant to flow all the way through the engine instead of just cooling the front cylinders. 

Dumping heat won’t be an issue. 

frenchyd said:

The pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Isn't Lemons supposed to be about covering the most laps with the fewest penalty points? If it was easy to depower for reliability, that seems to make more sense. 

It’s my understanding that LeMons and Chump car ( Champcar) have different rules.  

The major flaw in Champ Car is the mandatory 5 minute fuel stop.  5 minutes in the pits while more fuel efficient cars are recovering.  

But Champ Car will allow speed additives   like Turbo’s. If you put them on an old enough car there is no penalty.  

Turbo’s are sorta funny.  If you aren’t making boost they don’t hurt fuel mileage.  A little boost is only a little decrease in mileage.  

Fuel if the tank is stock you can have up to 24 gallons of fuel, but using 10-12 gallons an hour means 2 hours or less per tank.  

More fuel efficient cars might only use  3-4 gallons an hour. That means addition track time without refueling.  Without that 5 minute penalty.  

Running in traffic kills fuel mileage. As does flat out racing.  But bigger faster cars don’t have to run flat out and can conserve fuel. 

Some clarification...

2 hour max stints in champcar.

Minimum 5 minute pits for fueling.(as stated)

Normal fuel usage for front runners is about 7 to 9 gph.

Fuel rules are you can only legally have stock fuel tank size plus 2 gallons.  If you have more than that, you are forced to run E.C. and are not eligible for the win.

Also, there are rules about adding a turbo.   They are not free.  I believe they are 100 pts to add a turbo.

AwesomeAuto said:

I've done more than a few ~1000 hp junkyard turbo builds.

They'll survive if done right, but not for endurance racing. You'd never be able to use that power endurance racing anyway. Anything over ~650 would require a race dedicated chassis with a roll cage for rigidity, proper suspension, and very expensive tires. Chump/LeMons? Not a chance.

For drag racing and street action, you can usually get 3-5 years out of one if taken care of. People see them and think they are 1-hit wonders that'll only survive a few passes at the track. The first time I did one was in ~2014 or 15 and it still hasn't blown up. The 2nd one was in 2016 (with a couple others that year) that still haven't blown up. All are street driven very very hard with multiple track passes. The block strength, 6-bolt mains, factory forged rods, and relatively short stroke are all big factors. Since nearly every tuning angle has been explored, there is a fairly clear path of what to do and what not to do to keep them alive with timing and fuel. There aren't too many secrets left there anymore.

 

 

You’re exactly who I was trying to get to respond.  Thank you. No, I won’t go over about 6 pounds of boost for an endurance race.  450-500 hp is more than enough  stock they are 300  

If you think a Chevy ( etc) is strong you should see a JaguarV12.  We’re talking top fuel strong.  

But what is weak is the fuel system.  I can replace everything with GM or aftermarket for GM  but how do I get a ECM designed for 8 cylinders to feed 12?  

The Jaguar batch feeds 4 cylinders at a time. But it’s based on a 60 degree block.  Can I use  two 60 degree ECM’s  somehow?  Or two inline sixes?  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Dirtydog :

I have too many low compression V12’s  sitting around. The system could be nearly 45 years old  and there is no plug in diagnoses. Plus not a single microchip, it’s all totally analog. 

While I’ve figured out how it works, I have no idea of how Long it will work.  Taking something like that endurance racing is just plain nuts.  

The later “HE” engines run an intentionally lean stratified charge  engine that the moment a cylinder or two gets a plugged injector or some issue it wants to blow the head gasket.  A really fast job takes 6-8 hours. 

  I can retrofit carbs on but then I’m working with 242  horsepower when brand new and sitting around for 3-4 decades isn’t going to improve on that. Not to mention that when new  magazine testing yielded single digit fuel mileage.  

242 horsepower with 3000+ pounds and lousy fuel mileage, how many co-drivers would sign up for that?  

No somehow  I need to add boost ( compression is only 7.8-1 )  and yet use a reliable ECM.  

Something like that  would be attractive enough to get the co-drivers required. 

As far as dumping  heat.  The stock radiator is really good and I’ve got 3 good ones. Plus an aluminum one.  The reason they have problems is there is so much luxury junk stuffed under the hood, no air  can get through.  Freed of the A/C , air pump, that ambulance sized alternator, cruise control, battery,  HVAC  stuff,  plus some simple mods to get the coolant to flow all the way through the engine instead of just cooling the front cylinders. 

Dumping heat won’t be an issue. 

242 hp and 3000 pounds would be competitive in champcar or lemons.

Most front runners are just under 200 hp and around 2300 to 2500 pounds.

In other words, if you can afford the tires and fuel, that's a pretty similar pwr and can probably for some good size tires.

wvumtnbkr said:

frenchyd said:

The pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

Isn't Lemons supposed to be about covering the most laps with the fewest penalty points? If it was easy to depower for reliability, that seems to make more sense. 

It’s my understanding that LeMons and Chump car ( Champcar) have different rules.  

The major flaw in Champ Car is the mandatory 5 minute fuel stop.  5 minutes in the pits while more fuel efficient cars are recovering.  

But Champ Car will allow speed additives   like Turbo’s. If you put them on an old enough car there is no penalty.  

Turbo’s are sorta funny.  If you aren’t making boost they don’t hurt fuel mileage.  A little boost is only a little decrease in mileage.  

Fuel if the tank is stock you can have up to 24 gallons of fuel, but using 10-12 gallons an hour means 2 hours or less per tank.  

More fuel efficient cars might only use  3-4 gallons an hour. That means addition track time without refueling.  Without that 5 minute penalty.  

Running in traffic kills fuel mileage. As does flat out racing.  But bigger faster cars don’t have to run flat out and can conserve fuel. 

Some clarification...

2 hour max stints in champcar.

 

Minimum 5 minute pits for fueling.(as stated)

 

Normal fuel usage for front runners is about 7 to 9 gph.

 

Fuel rules are you can only legally have stock fuel tank size plus 2 gallons.  If you have more than that, you are forced to run E.C. and are not eligible for the win.

 

Also, there are rules about adding a turbo.   They are not free.  I believe they are 100 pts to add a turbo.

The points they list for my year of car is around 100 or  200 so a pair won’t hurt.  

I think I’ve still got  points left last time I checked.  Stock tank is 24 gallons.  

I’ll need to confirm my intended changes with regard weight reduction are allowed by watching cars go through tech inspection  again.  My hope is to get the race ready weight under 3000 pounds. 

But I can’t race it by myself.  I’ll need to attract Co-drivers.  Frankly without knowing anything about me there is no way I’d spend money unless I thought the car could be reliable enough and fast enough.  

So the first weakness I have to solve is the issue of a reliable, workable ECM   

Streetwiseguy said:

They might last a race or two...quarter mile drag races.  Maybe.

I can't imagine the size of radiators you'd need to shed a thousand horsepower worth of heat.

Look at what NASCAR used in the 900hp era.  Bear in mind that they also had 200mph of headwind available, were running without forced induction, and coolant temps in the 240+ range (intentionally, there is more power there).

Part of the puzzle is also how the inside of the engine is designed.  When BMW was using production (allegedly "seasoned" aka junkyard) blocks in F1, they were able to make 1300-1400hp... for one, maybe two qualifying laps, and then the engine was thoroughly heat soaked, since they couldn't transfer enough heat out of the engine.  As opposed to heat out of the coolant.

The 240 ish horsepower will be more than enough to get you into serious trouble. 

frenchyd said:

AwesomeAuto said:

I've done more than a few ~1000 hp junkyard turbo builds.

They'll survive if done right, but not for endurance racing. You'd never be able to use that power endurance racing anyway. Anything over ~650 would require a race dedicated chassis with a roll cage for rigidity, proper suspension, and very expensive tires. Chump/LeMons? Not a chance.

For drag racing and street action, you can usually get 3-5 years out of one if taken care of. People see them and think they are 1-hit wonders that'll only survive a few passes at the track. The first time I did one was in ~2014 or 15 and it still hasn't blown up. The 2nd one was in 2016 (with a couple others that year) that still haven't blown up. All are street driven very very hard with multiple track passes. The block strength, 6-bolt mains, factory forged rods, and relatively short stroke are all big factors. Since nearly every tuning angle has been explored, there is a fairly clear path of what to do and what not to do to keep them alive with timing and fuel. There aren't too many secrets left there anymore.

 

 

You’re exactly who I was trying to get to respond.  Thank you. No, I won’t go over about 6 pounds of boost for an endurance race.  450-500 hp is more than enough  stock they are 300  

If you think a Chevy ( etc) is strong you should see a JaguarV12.  We’re talking top fuel strong.  

But what is weak is the fuel system.  I can replace everything with GM or aftermarket for GM  but how do I get a ECM designed for 8 cylinders to feed 12?  

The Jaguar batch feeds 4 cylinders at a time. But it’s based on a 60 degree block.  Can I use  two 60 degree ECM’s  somehow?  Or two inline sixes?  

It depends on your budget. A GM ECM is do-able but not recommended. GM sensors ARE recommended. 
Aftermarket ECMs are capable of running a V12, with megasquirt being the most affordable.

If you don't want to spend a ton of money, you will have to deal with batch fire.

Cheaper options will batch fire 4 or 6 at at time, more expensive ones will be able to do full sequential of either spark or fuel and no more than a 2-cylinder batch fire on the other.
There are quite a few Jag V12s currently running on megasquirt so you won't be jumping into unknown territory alone.

 

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I’ve got a brand new mega Squirt still in the box but several people tell me I need the megasquirt 3 for 12 cylinders.  

I’m fine with batch firing, I don’t need to control the ignition.  I’m just not going to the very edge seeking the bragging numbers on the Dyno.  I do need junkyard cheap.   

I used to go frequently to the mega Squirt site look at the Jaguar V12’s and it seemed like some people spent way too much time there getting every last bit of power and driveability 

I’d come back a year later and they were still there sorting things out.  None were turboing, no one was talking about E85.