1000 horsepower junkyard motor builds?

All of the other valid points aside, is it simple to achieve much more than 242hp from a Jag V12 without resorting to the complexity of boost?

Also, to me the comments "Top Fuel Strong" more than 6psi will blow the headgasket seem to contradict one another.  Is there a simple solution for the headgasket issues?

Actually the V12’s has pretty decent headgaskets . Holding the heads on are 54  yes 54! studs. Most of which go all the way down to the crank webs.  6 psi is my prudence.  No need to brag about big numbers, just get enough to do the job.  

 If the gaskets keep blowing the next step is gas filled O rings ( or coopers rings)  slide the iron cylinders out, chuck them in a lathe and carve a groove for them.  That trick held the gaskets on for 24 hours at LeMans making 830 horsepower.  Using French pump grade gasoline.  

It’s not hard, to get 300 horsepower with an almost stock motor  However with just 6psi you’re up to 450-500 horsepower in that same motor. Little tiny 3/8ths inch lift on the intake valve. Yes there are better racing camshafts that will dramatically increase power. As well as pistons , valves etc. 

but the art is not how much power can be made but how much for how little.  

frenchyd said:

It’s not hard, to get 300 horsepower with an almost stock motor 

Then why berkeley around with turbos?  Id run it with 300hp and sort the rest of the chassis out and see how it does.  If horsepower proves to be the bottleneck, come back and address it later.

In reply to ProDarwin :

That’s fine for me.  But endurance racing requires  co- driving. Would you pay good money with 300 horsepower hauling around over 3000 pounds in a 40 year old chassis?  

I’ve worked on those cars almost since they were new.  I know how strong they are, how well built they are.  I know their weakness and how to correct them. 

The rules give me a shot. Heck even an advantage. Maybe others don’t see it that way. It’s possible, I could be wrong. I’m far from perfect.  But I want to try.  

Building the car, even testing it is something I can do on my own.   But without Co-drivers paying their way it will just remain a dream.  Normally aspirated it’s just a 40 + year old design.  Worth little more than I paid for it.  

Toss a couple of turbo’s on it and it will impress, hopefully enough to attract those co- drivers I need. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

That’s fine for me.  But endurance racing requires  co- driving. Would you pay good money with 300 horsepower hauling around over 3000 pounds in a 40 year old chassis?  

1) If its well sorted, yes.

2) I would be more likely to pay for that than for time in a homebrew twin turbo v12 hauling around 3000lbs in a 40 year old chassis.  I've know how that goes.  Car blows up, and several (most) drivers don't get their seat time.  That's no fun for anyone.

There is a lot to cheap enduro racing.  Boosting a motor to several times its factory output is not a big draw for many racers.  Having a sorted chassis with good tire wear is.  Decent gas mileage is.  Well executed pit stops is.  RELIABILITY is.  Etc.

In reply to ProDarwin : So I can’t count on you  to join me?  

That’s OK you have to follow what you believe in. 

As for me?  I’ll continue to do what others refuse to believe.   

I raced the Aston Martin Factory with the famed Sir Stirling Moss  driving.  I even won the autocross.  

I had the USNavy teach me to fly airplanes off carriers. 

I raced the finest cars in my class and won at Navy North Island. Received my trophy on an Aircraft Carrier.  

i built my own house with my plans, my way.  

Not once on any of those things did anybody believe I could, well except me.  

yupididit said:

+1

In reply to frenchyd :

Pro tip, if you notice your text being all bold you can press on the "B"  button under "Your comment" to turn bold text off.

Daylan C said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Didn't Jag themselves run two separate ECMs controlling each bank indepently at one point? 

No, but that’s a brilliant idea!! 

If you know the Genesis of the TrailBlazer/Envoy, Olds/ Buick etc. engine you’ll understand why much of their system will work with Jaguar.  

Use  Two  complete systems, one on the left bank, one on the right bank.  Ignore spark, I have the stock distributor for that.  

Does the TrailBlazer etc have obd? A chip I can reprogram?  

Is there a turbo kit out there?  Guess I have to try to find out. 

BMW did the dual ECU thing with their V12 in the 90's.  I think a lot of that engine, especially with regards to this aspect, was a "let's just jam a couple inline six's together to make this engine".  I've never worked on one or owned one so big fat internet talk grain of salt, but, I don't think it worked that well once these cars got older and they needed maintenance now and then.

frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I’ve got a brand new mega Squirt still in the box but several people tell me I need the megasquirt 3 for 12 cylinders.  

I’m fine with batch firing, I don’t need to control the ignition.  I’m just not going to the very edge seeking the bragging numbers on the Dyno.  I do need junkyard cheap.   

I used to go frequently to the mega Squirt site look at the Jaguar V12’s and it seemed like some people spent way too much time there getting every last bit of power and driveability 

I’d come back a year later and they were still there sorting things out.  None were turboing, no one was talking about E85.  

 

That sounds more like a problem with the Jag community and not the megasquirt community.
When you buy a megasquirt setup for an LS engine from DIYAutotune or EFISource, it comes preloaded with a turbo tune and the E85 flex sensor settings already inputted. 

I've been wanting to get my hands on a Mercedes V12 for years now, but can't find one for a decent price. Megasquirt will be what I use. 
Its not the BEST aftermarket ECU or most user friendly, but in terms of capability for the price, there isn't much that matches it.

frenchyd said:

In reply to ProDarwin : So I can’t count on you  to join me?  

That’s OK you have to follow what you believe in. 

As for me?  I’ll continue to do what others refuse to believe.   

I raced the Aston Martin Factory with the famed Sir Stirling Moss  driving.  I even won the autocross.  

I had the USNavy teach me to fly airplanes off carriers. 

I raced the finest cars in my class and won at Navy North Island. Received my trophy on an Aircraft Carrier.  

i built my own house with my plans, my way.  

Not once on any of those things did anybody believe I could, well except me.  

 

 

I don't think k anybody is saying you can't do it.  They are just asking why.

300 hp and even 3400# would be faster than most if not all champcars.

Most rental drivers are more interested in driving time than all out speed.

I like where your head is at, but it may be a step too much for champcar.  The trend in champcar is currently to race newer decent horsepower cars even if they aren't very sporty.  Things like a v6 Altima.

Just my .02$.

In for the build thread!

AwesomeAuto said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I’ve got a brand new mega Squirt still in the box but several people tell me I need the megasquirt 3 for 12 cylinders.  

I’m fine with batch firing, I don’t need to control the ignition.  I’m just not going to the very edge seeking the bragging numbers on the Dyno.  I do need junkyard cheap.   

I used to go frequently to the mega Squirt site look at the Jaguar V12’s and it seemed like some people spent way too much time there getting every last bit of power and driveability 

I’d come back a year later and they were still there sorting things out.  None were turboing, no one was talking about E85.  

 

That sounds more like a problem with the Jag community and not the megasquirt community.
When you buy a megasquirt setup for an LS engine from DIYAutotune or EFISource, it comes preloaded with a turbo tune and the E85 flex sensor settings already inputted. 

I've been wanting to get my hands on a Mercedes V12 for years now, but can't find one for a decent price. Megasquirt will be what I use. 
Its not the BEST aftermarket ECU or most user friendly, but in terms of capability for the price, there isn't much that matches it.

I might have a spare Mercedes m120 after new years. 

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

BMW did the dual ECU thing with their V12 in the 90's.  I think a lot of that engine, especially with regards to this aspect, was a "let's just jam a couple inline six's together to make this engine".  I've never worked on one or owned one so big fat internet talk grain of salt, but, I don't think it worked that well once these cars got older and they needed maintenance now and then.

Mercedes too. Huge PITA right now for me. It leaves me with the feeling of wanting even more lol

AwesomeAuto said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

I’ve got a brand new mega Squirt still in the box but several people tell me I need the megasquirt 3 for 12 cylinders.  

I’m fine with batch firing, I don’t need to control the ignition.  I’m just not going to the very edge seeking the bragging numbers on the Dyno.  I do need junkyard cheap.   

I used to go frequently to the mega Squirt site look at the Jaguar V12’s and it seemed like some people spent way too much time there getting every last bit of power and driveability 

I’d come back a year later and they were still there sorting things out.  None were turboing, no one was talking about E85.  

 

That sounds more like a problem with the Jag community and not the megasquirt community.
When you buy a megasquirt setup for an LS engine from DIYAutotune or EFISource, it comes preloaded with a turbo tune and the E85 flex sensor settings already inputted. 

I've been wanting to get my hands on a Mercedes V12 for years now, but can't find one for a decent price. Megasquirt will be what I use. 
Its not the BEST aftermarket ECU or most user friendly, but in terms of capability for the price, there isn't much that matches it.

You probably hit the nail on the head with that statement. By and large we tend to be old geezers who fondly remember the 1950’s.  And dealing with computers isn’t our strength. 

You did do me one great big favor. You told me about  DIY  Auto tune and EFISource.   Now I have to see if they have something for the 4.2 Atlas engine and how much two will cost me.  

wvumtnbkr said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to ProDarwin : So I can’t count on you  to join me?  

That’s OK you have to follow what you believe in. 

As for me?  I’ll continue to do what others refuse to believe.   

I raced the Aston Martin Factory with the famed Sir Stirling Moss  driving.  I even won the autocross.  

I had the USNavy teach me to fly airplanes off carriers. 

I raced the finest cars in my class and won at Navy North Island. Received my trophy on an Aircraft Carrier.  

i built my own house with my plans, my way.  

Not once on any of those things did anybody believe I could, well except me.  

 

 

I don't think k anybody is saying you can't do it.  They are just asking why.

 

300 hp and even 3400# would be faster than most if not all champcars.

 

Most rental drivers are more interested in driving time than all out speed.

 

I like where your head is at, but it may be a step too much for champcar.  The trend in champcar is currently to race newer decent horsepower cars even if they aren't very sporty.  Things like a v6 Altima.

 

Just my .02$.

 

In for the build thread!

You talk a lot of good common sense and I should listen to you.  Starting with a newer car means a whole lot less work. Ha!  What fun is that?  There is nothing in my life I’ve done that I’m proud of that I did the easy way. The way it’s normally done. 

Someone said about 500 hours got them a good reliable car. I’m planning on spending around 2500 hours, my typical build time.  Strip it down to the bare shell and then put it on the rotisserie.  Weld in the cage and build up from there.  

Most people start with cars with great reliability reputations.  Ha!!! What fun is that?  The easy has little reward. 

yupididit said:

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

BMW did the dual ECU thing with their V12 in the 90's.  I think a lot of that engine, especially with regards to this aspect, was a "let's just jam a couple inline six's together to make this engine".  I've never worked on one or owned one so big fat internet talk grain of salt, but, I don't think it worked that well once these cars got older and they needed maintenance now and then.

 

Mercedes too. Huge PITA right now for me. It leaves me with the feeling of wanting even more lol

It’s funny how some people throw their hands up and quit when things get difficult. You and I seem to share the Gene  that makes us dig in and enjoy the challenge once we overcome it. 

Frenchy, if it were me endurance racing a V-12 Jag, about the last thing I'd worry about was forced induction.  Getting the car stripped, caged, tuned, and RELIABLE for a 12 hour track flog is more than enough and plenty challenging.  As others said, 242 hp in a 3,000 lb box is plenty to be a front runner on most any track if the thing can hold together.  But those brakes are gonna be worked hard, the trans will be worked hard, the cooling system will be taxed and the tires will be tortured.

All that said, give me a shout when you have a car together and want a driver.  I don't suck. 

In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :

The two tracks I’ll be at are Brainerd and Elkhart Lake.   Both are power tracks.   Brainerd is more than 3/4 of a mile straight ( NHRA  drag strip where all the pros run on the national tour)  followed by a banking with another 3/8ths or so.  

There is another decently long straight Group 44’s Bob Tullias said that was his favorite tract. Because his Jag’s could really leg it out there.  

But the best track I’ve ever raced at. One I love is Elkhart Lake. ( ROAD AMERICA ) 4 miles of high speed with 3 long straights followed by tight corners , the hurry downs and the carousel.   

When the Indy cars come to town they come with their biggest brake air scoops.  Best calipers and fluids are replaced after every session. Your braking skills will be on display at every one of its 14 corners and if you don’t have your A game it will show  

That track I clocked 158 mph going into Turn 5  in my Black Jack Special. 

The brakes will be the biggest Wilwoods allowed, with plenty of ducting.  Handling and speed will be impressive. Not me, I’ll just make sure Sir William Lyons Car is as prepped  as possible. 

That V12 is stone reliable  Group 44 had a very impressive finishing record  taking on the might  of Corvette, Porsche, and BMW M6 

 Edit; 

The transmission for this won’t be the 5 speed Seinz. Great as that transmission is with drivers of unknown skill, there is no way to be assured they will shift it properly.  Hint, the only time the clutch is used is to get the car rolling.  The rest of the time all shifts up or down do not use the clutch. 

So I will go through the GM Turbo 400’s  convert them to manual shifts and stick a great big cooler on them  

In reply to KyAllroad (Jeremy) :

When Walkinshaw (I think) took a Jag to Mt Panorama ("the motorsports equivalent of bungee jumping) they were fast, but it was easy to tell they were hard on the brakes with all that weight, so the competiton bided (bode?) their time waiting for the inevitable extra long pit stop to do brake maintenance.

Sure enough, it needed brakes early in the race... and they had engineered a way to replace the pads in five minutes.  Slap new pads in, change driver, get back out to make laps.

Endurance racing seems to be more about spending less time in the pits than actual speed.

you keep mentioning these co-drivers who wouldn't be willing to race something that isn't turbo and 1000whp capable.

have any of them actually done endurance racing before? I ask because I borrowed a seat in 2 endurance events this year (one at BIR even)

car A: 200hp honda fit

car B: 350hp foxbody mustang

car A ran the entire 14 hour race requiring only fuel stops and 1 quick 10 minute rotor job to swap a cracked rotor due to underestimating the cooling needed at Daytona. result. 2nd in class, and a top 10 overall finish.

car B ran about 3 laps before needing to pit in for new ducting as the massive "nascar" radiator couldn't shed heat quick enough. then went out and did a few more laps before popping the head gaskets. We sat out the rest of that 9 hour race pulling the heads and replacing gaskets to try again on sundays 8 hour race. where we promptly did 3 more laps before getting valvetrain noise that was deemed catastrophic and the car was retired for the weekend.

Guess which one I'm more interesting in paying to rent time in again? 

You seem to have a lot of experianced folks here telling you that they'd rather drive a more reliable slow car than an unreliable fast car. So unless you have a specific set of codrivers you want on board that have already indicated they won't be interested unless the car is bonkers fast it seems to me that many folks are more likely to be turned off by this idea than turned on by it.

But it's your car, your team and variety is the spice of life, nothing wrong with doing something just to say you've done it. So personally I'm hoping you will do it, and document it on the forums for the rest of us to follow along. Who knows perhaps you'll usher in a whole new era of chumpcar endurance racing where the cars have the ability to run 20-30% faster for 1-2 laps at a time to "run away" from competitors as needed.

Don't forget there is also a points system where things like big turbos and big brakes and aftermarket radiators add up and give you penalty laps and even take you out contention completely.  I've done some chump racing and seen some powerful cars do well (I've never seen anything out there with 1000 hp), but reliability is the main priority in endurance racing.

It also seems like you're thinking a high powered jag is going to just pull away from the field and give you the chance to coast to a win.  Your competitors are not slow (mostly)

frenchyd said:

What I wonder is  how long do they last? 

Having actually tuned a number of these they are measured in single digit minutes @ WOT.

Lof8 said:

I've done some chump racing and seen some powerful cars do well (I've never seen anything out there with 1000 hp)

This raises a question... what is the highest power level car anyone here has seen on track during lemons/chump/wrl?

Highest power level car that ran reliably/completed a race?