1000 horsepower junkyard motor builds?

In reply to yupididit :

Well you are free to do whatever you’d like.  Good luck. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 :

I’m assuming you’re talking about the Burgundy Jaguar? 

The stripping it down and putting it on the rotisserie phase is straight forward, stuff I’m comfortable doing.  ( and had great success in the past)  

What I desperately need help with is that Funky EFI stuff.  Until I resolve that I’ll do nothing except accumulate stuff like I’m doing and plan.  

Should I modify the existing Lucas stuff that works now?  

Switch to the megasquirt system I have sitting in its delivery box?  

Buy a newer megasquirt system? 

Buy 2 systems from a junkyard TrailBlazer Envoy etc  and adapt them? 

What will each cost me to completion?  I can do the mechanical bits, install, wire, hook up, check, diagnose some issues.  

But the guidance required to decide, to select this sensor over that one. Where the oxygen sensor needs to be.  What instruments are required and what spares to have on hand  

 

Get me some more details on the hardware you have access to now and I can talk you through some suggestions. Kandpperformance at gmail dot com

Frenchyd,

I always enjoy your posts and read all your threads about Jaguars.  I simply want to encourage you to build the car and nuts to all the naysayers.  I will enjoy reading about it.

frenchyd said:

Daylan C said:

yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Just Chevy v8 swap it 

I thought a Ford's front distributor was easier to work with. Unless we mean LT or LS here. 

Jaguar’s that have distributors have them on top and in the middle. Nothing covers them up.  No plastic air cleaner or trim. 

The front distributor means front oil pump, therefore front sump oil pan.

I yupididit said:

pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

BMW did the dual ECU thing with their V12 in the 90's.  I think a lot of that engine, especially with regards to this aspect, was a "let's just jam a couple inline six's together to make this engine".  I've never worked on one or owned one so big fat internet talk grain of salt, but, I don't think it worked that well once these cars got older and they needed maintenance now and then.

 

Mercedes too. Huge PITA right now for me. It leaves me with the feeling of wanting even more lol

Sorry , I meant to answer this and then lost track of it.  

Jaguar’s V12’s was a complete clean sheet design, designed as a stand alone V12. Nothing* from the Cast Iron block  six cylinder XK designed during WW2 was used.

Conceived in 1954.   Sir Lyons actually bought Coventry Climax in  1963 to acquire the  2 Formula 1 winning engine designers. ( who also helped design the original XK engine) Walter Hassan & William Haynes.

*The first V12’s which produced 502 Horsepower  from 5 liters ( 300 cu in ) back in early 1960’s did use quad cam heads patterned after the XK engine.  

When the return to LeMans was canceled  the design was upgraded to allow it to exceed 500 cu in. ( 8 liters).   Switching from quad cam to a SOHC  over 120 pounds  and 6 inches of height was reduced while actually making more low end horsepower and torque.  

It was finally released in the fall of 1971 in the XKE series 3 

klodkrawler05 said:

you keep mentioning these co-drivers who wouldn't be willing to race something that isn't turbo and 1000whp capable.

have any of them actually done endurance racing before? I ask because I borrowed a seat in 2 endurance events this year (one at BIR even)

car A: 200hp honda fit

car B: 350hp foxbody mustang

 

car A ran the entire 14 hour race requiring only fuel stops and 1 quick 10 minute rotor job to swap a cracked rotor due to underestimating the cooling needed at Daytona. result. 2nd in class, and a top 10 overall finish.

car B ran about 3 laps before needing to pit in for new ducting as the massive "nascar" radiator couldn't shed heat quick enough. then went out and did a few more laps before popping the head gaskets. We sat out the rest of that 9 hour race pulling the heads and replacing gaskets to try again on sundays 8 hour race. where we promptly did 3 more laps before getting valvetrain noise that was deemed catastrophic and the car was retired for the weekend.

Guess which one I'm more interesting in paying to rent time in again? 

You seem to have a lot of experianced folks here telling you that they'd rather drive a more reliable slow car than an unreliable fast car. So unless you have a specific set of codrivers you want on board that have already indicated they won't be interested unless the car is bonkers fast it seems to me that many folks are more likely to be turned off by this idea than turned on by it.

But it's your car, your team and variety is the spice of life, nothing wrong with doing something just to say you've done it. So personally I'm hoping you will do it, and document it on the forums for the rest of us to follow along. Who knows perhaps you'll usher in a whole new era of chumpcar endurance racing where the cars have the ability to run 20-30% faster for 1-2 laps at a time to "run away" from competitors as needed.

I understand what you’re saying. If this was my first race I’d probably follow your advice. 

My first race was back in 1964 where I took a 12 year old straight 8 Buick with a rollbar  made from a swing set.  Nope I didn’t win. Or even finish.  But I got better.  

Now towards the end of my career it’s about doing what I feel is right.  I’ve had my share of riding around in the pact and being content.  I’ve also stormed through the pack and won.  Guess which feels better? 

Lof8 said:

Don't forget there is also a points system where things like big turbos and big brakes and aftermarket radiators add up and give you penalty laps and even take you out contention completely.  I've done some chump racing and seen some powerful cars do well (I've never seen anything out there with 1000 hp), but reliability is the main priority in endurance racing.

It also seems like you're thinking a high powered jag is going to just pull away from the field and give you the chance to coast to a win.  Your competitors are not slow (mostly)

I love that points system.  Up to 500 points no penalty.  The older the car the fewer points you start out with.  Now add 200 points for the turbo.  Plus I think it’s 15 points for the Wilwood  calipers.  They will hit me for the dry sump (?)  and I’ve still got points to play with. 

In the 80’s when BMW  went head to head with Walkinshaw’s Jaguar XJS  Walkinshaw ran away from the BMW’s and qualified on the pole at every race.  What made it close is Jaguar’s thirst. Something I’ve talked at length about.  

I understand endurance racing. We did it with delicate old Vintage race cars.  The way to do well in endurance racing is to build a solid race car and drive it at a comfortable pace. Not stressing it.  

Robbie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm not worried about the motor. I'm worried about the trans in between 400hp and 3400lbs....

Unless it's an Allison I fear for the trans temp gauge.

I want to use the Seinz sitting on my shelf. That 5 speed is designed for 800 horsepower. But with co-drivers of dubious  experience and skill I better use the stock one. 

Yes the Turbo 400 is a fragile, delicate, little thing.  Especially the one in V12’s . Because of the V12’s Torque they put the heavy duty stuff from the tow Trucks and ambulances. 

The best oil Cooler I know is the A/C unit under the dash in big GM sedans etc. I used to pull them in junkyards and pay $15 each.  

Now the slow shift between gears will still build up a lot of heat.  So you drop the pan, pull the valve body, and drop a few ball bearings in to plug that all up.  Now you have to shift manually and when you do it’s anything but smooth. However it won’t overheat. 

I’ll be honest. The last time I did that trick you were probably still in a stroller. So I don’t remember what size or where they drop in.

 But I know where to look it up.  

Knurled. said:

In reply to frenchyd :

No, it's horsepower.  Specifically, inability to reject the heat that horsepower creates.  Not just the heat in the engine,  but also the heat in the brakes, the heat in the drivetrain, the heat in the wheel bearings...

 

Have you been to an endurance race?  The seasoned vets will replace entire suspension corners at regular intervals - disconnect ball joints, tie rods, and brake hoses, and renew the whole lot.  Everything has a life.

 

The funny thing is, high power only gets you only a few percent in lap times.  Even without figuring traffic into play.

How many races have you prepared cars for?  More than me?  If I figure only 5 race events a year since 1970. ( I’ll throw in races prior to that ) and skip the last decade  due to financial limitations 

I’ve only done about 200 or so. I won’t count the odd sprint car race or drag race.  Just weekends of sportsca racing. 

Paul_VR6 said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 :

I’m assuming you’re talking about the Burgundy Jaguar? 

The stripping it down and putting it on the rotisserie phase is straight forward, stuff I’m comfortable doing.  ( and had great success in the past)  

What I desperately need help with is that Funky EFI stuff.  Until I resolve that I’ll do nothing except accumulate stuff like I’m doing and plan.  

Should I modify the existing Lucas stuff that works now?  

Switch to the megasquirt system I have sitting in its delivery box?  

Buy a newer megasquirt system? 

Buy 2 systems from a junkyard TrailBlazer Envoy etc  and adapt them? 

What will each cost me to completion?  I can do the mechanical bits, install, wire, hook up, check, diagnose some issues.  

But the guidance required to decide, to select this sensor over that one. Where the oxygen sensor needs to be.  What instruments are required and what spares to have on hand  

 

 

Get me some more details on the hardware you have access to now and I can talk you through some suggestions. Kandpperformance at gmail dot com

I sent you an E mail. Please confirm you’ve received it when you can. If you’re like me you’ll have other priorities  so I’ll be patient.  

Poking around on the internet has taught me the following. The Jaguars have the triggers required to make the system work in the distributor.  ( Hall effect sensors)  I can run the Mega Squirt as a fuel only system and leave the ignition to the existing system. 

So far no one has a plug and play ECM for the 4.2 GM Atlas engine.   However I’m still likely to use their sensors and throttle body’s.  So it appears I’m left to learning how to get the Mega Squirt working.  

The good news is EFI Auto tune has a cable that will allow me to serve as the OBD2 port  so I can plug in my lap top. Seems reasonably priced 

They also sell something I assume works like the OBD2 system to confirm  everything is hooked up and working properly.  It too seems reasonably priced. 

I will need to buy  wide band sensors to put into my exhaust system.  I recall reading about which brand to select on here but I’ll have to look it back up.  

The great news ( to me at least) is the system is capable of self learning!!!!!!! Yeh!! 

So my terror of having to input endless graphs and data  doesn’t seem so daunting now.  Tweaking  is something I think I can do. I’ll just have to remember it’s keystrokes not screw drivers, wrenches and drills. 

I recognize for optimum performance Dyno session(s) will be required. But that  should be relatively painless. 

My plan is to get it running on the street, but race prepped.  Drive it until I’m comfortable I’ve properly debugged it . Enter a SCCA Track night event or 2  to confirm it holds up under race like conditions. 

Then see if I can gather some  Co-drivers I’m comfortable enough with to trust them with my car. 

frenchyd said:

Yes the Turbo 400 is a fragile, delicate, little thing.  

That is the first time in history that these words have been used in this combination and order.

Especially the one in V12’s . Because of the V12’s Torque they put the heavy duty stuff from the tow Trucks and ambulances. 

Torque is displacement.  Jaguar did not make high displacement engines, especially compared to the monsters that GM was putting in front of the TH400 to power 5000-6000 pound tanks, which was the express reason why the TH400 was designed in the first place.  Frankly, I believe you are full of E36 M3.

The actual "heavy duty TH400s" had straight cut gears and a drum brake mounted to the tailhousing as a parking brake.  The gears made them very, very loud, but the motorhomes and school buses they were installed in either had a lot of sound insulation or they were just school buses, berk NVH.

In reply to Knurled. :

If you think Jaguars are lighter than those “tanks” you obviously haven’t checked the weight of an XJS.  As for torque. Please remember why V12’s  are used in big heavy sedans like Mercedes Benz, 800 series BMW’s and Jaguars.  

Yes they are smooth but they also put out massive torque. If you start counting power strokes per crankshaft revolution between a V8 and a V12 a light bulbs will come on.  

Dont forget the original Jaguar V12’s put out 502 horse power  way back in the early 1960’s.  That  was an engine designed to run for 24 hours on French pump gas.  

Finally that engine was designed to grow  to over 500 cubic  inches.  ( unlike the Mercedes Benz  and BMW which were basically two existing six cylinders on a common crankshaft and thus really at their peak size. 

frenchyd said:

Yes they are smooth but they also put out massive torque. If you start counting power strokes per crankshaft revolution between a V8 and a V12 a light bulbs will come on.  

facepalm.jpg

frenchyd said:

In reply to Knurled. :

 As for torque. Please remember why V12’s  are used in big heavy sedans like Mercedes Benz, 800 series BMW’s and Jaguars.  

Smoothness.  And marketing.

In reply to frenchyd :

You've been smoking the Jaguar crack to long. 

1971 Jaguar E-Type V12 specifications

1970 Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado specifications

Both of those engines used the 400 trans yet you say the Jaguar was too powerful for the trans?  The Cadillac engine blows the Jaguar away on horsepower and torque yet the Cadillac world never had problems with the 400 trans.  I used to think you were just an old guy fan boy but now you're just pulling E36 M3 out of thin air with no basis in reality.  I used to think the Jaguar V12 was a cool engine but now you've made me hate it. 

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

You've been smoking the Jaguar crack to long. 

1971 Jaguar E-Type V12 specifications

bodywork
maximum power output (DIN)	276 PS (272 bhp ) (203 kW ) at 5850 rpm
Specific output (DIN)	50.9 bhp/litre 0.83 bhp/cu in
maximum torque (DIN)	412 Nm (304 ft·lb ) (42 kgm ) at 3600 rpm

 

 

1970 Cadillac Fleetwood Eldorado specifications

bodywork
maximum power output	406 PS (400 bhp ) (298 kW ) at 4400 rpm
Specific output	48.9 bhp/litre 0.8 bhp/cu in
maximum torque	746 Nm (550 ft·lb ) (76.1 kgm ) at 3000 rpm

 

Both of those engines used the 400 trans yet you say the Jaguar was too powerful for the trans?  The Cadillac engine blows the Jaguar away on horsepower and torque yet the Cadillac world never had problems with the 400 trans.  I used to think you were just an old guy fan boy but now you're just pulling E36 M3 out of thin air with no basis in reality.  I used to think the Jaguar V12 was a cool engine but now you've made me hate it. 

It is a cool engine. But, you have to take what frenchy says about the xjs and the jag v12 with a grain of salt. Plus, he hasn't said anything new in years lol. Just the same ass pull every time lol. 

It really is a beautiful engine though. And the xjs is a beautiful car. 

In reply to yupididit :

You’re just wrong.  The Turbo 400 in Jaguar didn’t come out until late in 1977 well after the last XKE rolled down the production line in 1975. By the way those last 50 were all 4 speed manual cars painted Black.  The  automatic Transmission in the XKE was the Borg Warner, it survived in the light XKE but even before it went in Sir Lyons had been looking at it’s replacement. Since by then it was seen as long in the tooth.It had been used by Jaguar in various forms since 1953. 

In addition Sir Lyons has planned on using the V12’s not only in the Sports car but the sedans.   Starting out back in 1954 it had been designed as a 5 liter engine. ( Look at the XJ13 ) Sir Lyons had it modified to work in the new sedan he was designing The XJ12 .  

Detroit was already over 400 cubic inches and approaching 500 so the original V12’s were enlarged to allow them to take it to that size. Lyons bought Coventry Climax in 1963 to reacquire Hassan and Haynes. The two engineers who helped him design the original XK engine during WW2  and designed the famous Coventry Climax   In Coopers and Lotus that was winning Formula 1 

However shortly after introduction the Suez Crisis  occurred and fuel costs shot up dramatically effectively killing the market for big thirsty engines in Europe. When America’s “Fuel Shortage” occurred  Sir Lyon’s bet the company gamble on the V12’s reduced sales to under 1000 units.  Only continued sales of the XJ6  allowed Jaguar to limp along.  The final Nail on the Coffin was California’s proposed smog laws.  With more than 50% of Jaguar’s market sold to California that would have been the death of Jaguar.  While improvements in fuel mileage  and compliance with proposed laws were implemented.  Those changes robbed Jaguar of much of its actual performance.   However Group 44’s success in racing in America along with Tom Walkinshaw’s European success against BMW  brought the company through those tough times.  

Second. 

Please learn the difference between SAE Gross horsepower and DIN net horsepower. 

Finally if we are talking about sedan’s weight looking up an out of production sports car  that used a different transmission doesn’t make your point.  

You are right, I haven’t said anything different about the V12’s.  They haven’t changed.  Well there were development differences. Minutiae really that only matter to restoration purest. 

But It’s fun to consider what a 500 cu in V12 would have been like had not the Suez crisis, fuel shortage and California’s emissions happened. 

In reply to frenchyd :

No, man. You're just wrong. The TH400 came out in the early 60s. Cadillac and Buick started using them, first.

Geez, you're hilarious. 

I haven't heard anything even hinting that TH400's were delicate until this thread. I do think most of the strength attributed to them has been for drag racing so it is possible cooling is an issue with road racing.

Frenchy, It sounds like you know how you want to build the car and the only thing you really have a question about is the fuel and possibly ignition control. The people offering you help in that area are very talented. I hope you build it. I want to see what a boosted jag V12 with good ignition and fuel control can do. 

In reply to MrJoshua :

TH400 is also the default answer in trophy trucks, so if cooling is a problem it must be a fixable one.

I In reply to RealMiniNoMore : 

In Jaguar it came out in late 1977 

MrJoshua said:

I haven't heard anything even hinting that TH400's were delicate until this thread. I do think most of the strength attributed to them has been for drag racing so it is possible cooling is an issue with road racing.

Frenchy, It sounds like you know how you want to build the car and the only thing you really have a question about is the fuel and possibly ignition control. The people offering you help in that area are very talented. I hope you build it. I want to see what a boosted jag V12 with good ignition and fuel control can do. 

The trouble is even plainly obvious sarcasm isn’t understood in text. 

Please reread that now. 

And I apologize for not putting it italics or making it even more obvious. 

Daylan C said:

In reply to MrJoshua :

TH400 is also the default answer in trophy trucks, so if cooling is a problem it must be a fixable one.

I’m sorry, I was going for sarcasm and obviously missed. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to yupididit :

You’re just wrong.  The Turbo 400 in Jaguar didn’t come out until late in 1977 well after the last XKE rolled down the production line in 1975. By the way those last 50 were all 4 speed manual cars painted Black.  The  automatic Transmission in the XKE was the Borg Warner, it survived in the light XKE but even before it went in Sir Lyons had been looking at it’s replacement. Since by then it was seen as long in the tooth.It had been used by Jaguar in various forms since 1953. 

In addition Sir Lyons has planned on using the V12’s not only in the Sports car but the sedans.   Starting out back in 1953 it had been designed as a 5 liter engine. ( Look at the XJ13 ) Sir Lyons had it modified to work in the new sedan he was designing The XJ12 .  

Detroit was already over 400 cubic inches and approaching 500 so the original V12’s were enlarged to allow them to take it to that size. Lyons bought Coventry Climax to reacquire Hassan and Haynes. The two engineers who helped him design the original XK engine during WW2  and designed the famous Coventry Climax   In Coopers and Lotus that was winning Formula 1 

However shortly after introduction the Suez Crisis  occurred and fuel costs shot up dramatically effectively killing the market for big thirsty engines in Europe. When America’s “Fuel Shortage” occurred  Sir Lyon’s bet the company gamble on the V12’s reduced sales to under 1000 units.  Only continued sales of the XJ6  allowed Jaguar to limp along.  The final Nail on the Coffin was California’s proposed smog laws.  With more than 50% of Jaguar’s market sold to California that would have been the death of Jaguar.  While improvements in fuel mileage  and compliance with proposed laws were implemented.  Those changes robbed Jaguar of much of its actual performance.   However Group 44’s success in racing in America along with Tom Walkinshaw’s European success against BMW  brought the company through those tough times.  

 

Second. 

Please learn the difference between SAE Gross horsepower and DIN net horsepower. 

Finally if we are talking about sedan’s weight looking up an out of production sports car  that used a different transmission doesn’t make your point.  

You are right, I haven’t said anything different about the V12’s.  They haven’t changed.  Well there were development differences. Minutiae really that only matter to restoration purest. 

But It’s fun to consider what a 500 cu in V12 would have been like had not the Suez crisis, fuel shortage and California’s emissions happened. 

Why are you telling me all that useless info? Did you even read my post?

In reply to yupididit :

Did you bother reading my post?