~$10k 'newer' people/stuff hauler?

I can't believe it, but I'm actually considering spending more than $2,000 on a car. I'm quite honestly fed the berkeley up with doing constant repairs on the 335k 1991 integra, and the 'low-mile' (129k) but old, rusty, and fickle 87 civic. Being STUCK at the house last week, waiting on parts for BOTH cars sealed the deal.

While I realize I don't have to spend $10k to get some of the criteria below, I'd rather spend 10k for a newer reliable something than 3k for an older reliable something with 200k miles.

MUST HAVES

4 doors.

Decent room in back (fold-down seats, hatch, wagon, whatever) to haul stuff.

30+ MPG fuel economy (I drive 80 miles/day during the week.)

Reliability.

Ease/low cost of maintenance (no '6-hours to change spark plugs' deals; no $600 oxygen sensors, please.)

NICE TO HAVES

Low mileage...I've never owned a car that didn't have well over 100k when I bought it.

AWD.

Decent handling.

Decent interior.

Power is honestly not a concern. This will be an appliance.

On my short list thus far - keeping in mind that I haven't driven half of these cars, and would obviously do so before purchasing:

Fit. (Mileage misprint???) http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/2132011191.html

Element. http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/2128361449.html

Corolla(???) http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/2109896963.html

Civic? http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/2069739485.html

Have I lost my damned mind? Should I just continue on with the constant maintenance battles of older cars?

Look for early 2000 Legacy's or Foresster's. They click all of your buttons, including the "nicities", and are stupid-easy to work on. I did an alternator on one and it took less than $50 and 15 minutes.

Mazda6 and Protege5 would both work as well.

the 30+MPG and AWD don't really go well together. If AWD isn't necessary, Spectra5 is the perfect car for you. Decent power, decent stock handling, easy to maintain, 30+mpg, TONS of room. I'd also suggest an 05/06 Elantra GT hatchback.

Pontiac Vibe. I bought my 06 with 30K miles for 11K (it now has 70K miles and I've had 0 problems with it). 34-36 MPG, HUGE hatch (that with the seats folded has a flat, plastic lined cargo floor big enough for me to put my mountain bike or road bike in without taking the wheel off!), good rear seat room (I'm 6'0 and can have the drivers seat set for daily driving and get out and get in the back seat and be comfortable). Maintenance wise you could nearly get in the engine bay with the engine and it's a Toyota so very reliable. It's available with AWD if that's your thing but mine + snow tires will go damn near anywhere.

The mileage misprint on the Fit may be due to a lack of spacing between where one sentence ends....and another begins. As in : Good condition.39 miles to the gallon.

I agree, AWD and 30+ mpg are pretty much a non-starter.

The good news? It's getting harder to find a decent small car that's NOT a 4 door. Civic and ????? Oh, yeah, Focus, or a Cobalt/G5.

Mazda5 mini-minivan
Hits all the points except AWD

Typical example:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=291354854&dealer_id=63618811&car_year=2007&doors=&systime=&model=MAZDA5&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=100&min_price=&drive=&rdm=1293827569202&marketZipError=false&advanced=&fuel=&keywords_display=&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=y&make2=&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=0&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=&address=30143&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=11000&awsp=false&make=MAZDA&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=48&standard=false
Was offered with manual trans though pretty rare.

AWD is definitely NOT a must-have. Might save that spot for a sub $1k beater. Thanks for the suggestions! Keep 'em comin'!

You should be able to find any of these with an acceptable number of miles on them for less than $10k (I've been doing the same search):

Mazda3

Outback

Outback Sport

older Legacy

SX4

Vibe/Matrix

I might add to the list the 2001-2002 Infiniti G20. You might get lucky and find one in your area. I just helped a friend get one for like $3,000 and he was flabbergasted at what a nice ride it was. They all come pretty loaded.

A base Mazda 6 hatch or fusion is probably the way to go. Also a non-turbo impreza/ saab 9-2, Ford escape with the 4 cyl and manual trans, focus, pt cruiser

sanman wrote: A base Mazda 6 hatch or fusion is probably the way to go. Also a non-turbo impreza/ saab 9-2, Ford escape with the 4 cyl and manual trans, focus, pt cruiser

Our Cruiser has been fantastic as an appliance. I have replaced the light control unit (like $75 and 10 minutes) and that's all that broke. I did front suspension bushings to freshen them (which was not bad) and the timing belt (which was kinda bad), and brakes just a bit ago. That's it. Nice on the inside, available with a stick shift, and super cheap.

i was surprised how much poke my buddy's 4-cyl stick Mazda6 has, and it meets your highway mpg requirement. i'm betting the 4-cyl stick Fusion would do the same. the way i drive, my V6 stick Mazda6 doesn't get anywhere near 30 mpg. the sedan with folding rear seat has a decent sized pass-thru, but the seat does not fold flat.

i have two friends with Pontiac Vibes, and they both love 'em.

i have two other friends with Mazda5 mini-minivans, and they friggin' love 'em. IDK if either experience 30 mpg highway, but they're both automatics.

you don't need AWD. full-time weight penalty for very part-time usefulness.

Manual trans first-gen xB will get you there, except for the AWD. The xA will as well, with even better mpg and not quite as funky looking.

xa's are surprisingly nice mazda6 or 3 protege5 or spectra5 or elantra hatch maxima's are pretty roomy, altima 4 door outback's return at least 25mpg iirc

I feel ya on that 80+miles/day, that's what I'm going through too

my kia forte gets 29-33 mpg consistently and has ALOT of room, you can get one for about 11k brand new I've been driving it for exactly a year as of tomorrow, have about 22k miles on it, and have had zero problems, at all. 2.0 manual trans they have a 2.0 eco package also, with a smart alternator and some aero upgrades iirc if you want a reliable car, there really isn't anything to compare to getting a brand new car imho

I just went through this last month.

IMHO, hands down, just get an 04-06 xB. Tons of room for its size, a rock solid 1.5L with a timing chain, 33+ mpg... its basically built on the Yaris platform.

My only complaint is that the back seats don't fold down flat... they almost go flat, but they do stick up at a tiny angle. We have toted quite a bit of weight with it and it does OK, but a little help in the rear spring department would help. That would also help its so-so handling.

We just picked up an 05 with 50k for $7500 OTD. It was nicely upgraded - tasteful 17" wheels, big DVD screen on the ceiling, tinted windows. Only options it doesn't have are cruise and leather.

All of the rest are much bigger cars. The Element is just a bigger car and the mileage that is actually seen is much lower than the 27-30 mpg they advertise. Mid 20s at best from what I've seen. Kia soul is another contender, but less interior room and sketchy reliability. Nissan Cube is also a contender, but the bang-for-buck seems to go to the xB.

Its good that you don't want power, because moving one of these bricks through the wind means that power eats MPG for lunch. The 5 speed in my wife's xB is nicely split, but the 4.27 final drive keeps RPMs buzzing around 3k on the highway. Factory stereo is more than adequate to make that a non-issue.

07-later xBs get side airbags and lose a side window which hurts visibility more than you'd think. They also get more oomph and fewer MPGs. Their popularity has kept the 2nd gen models pricier and made the 1st gens cheaper, so capitalize on that.

The element has two problems..

1. the aforementioned crap gas mileage. AWD versions get 20-22mpg..
2. The rear seats are very far away from the front seats. This only causes a problem with morons like us with small kids. You'd have to have long monkey arms to reach back and put a binky in the kids mouth.

The XB intrigues me...

Here's ours. Another big benefit is the storage. There are so many compartments and cubbys. And my 6'1" 245-lb ass can cross my legs in the passenger seat and there is still darn near 2 feet of legroom in the back seat.

The xB is interesting. It also looks rad on Axis Oldskools with 2" drop...

I would not recommend a Protege 5. Ours has been OK, but good lord is it a PITA to work on compared to a Civic.

I've been pleased with both of my Subarus. Never gonna see 30mpg out of one, but the AWD is nice on snow days, which you have more often than us an hour away.

We all have our loves and hates. Some people will swear by a Land Rover and say that their Civic was a lemon. Its too much subjective perspecitve.

But, having managed a total of 14 shops in TX, Tech'd at four, worked for three in CA, I tend to have a bit different perspective. I see things as how "failure prone" they are.

Timing belt? Not in my house. Especially DSMs. Terrible timing belts that are not only difficult to install, but a terrible design that doesn't tension properly.

Auto tranny? Not unless its in a RWD pickup with proven reliability. The only gripe I have with my wife's Scion xB is the labor time involved with doing a clutch job.

Mazda? They seem to have my heart captured when it comes to torquey little reliable 4-bangers. I won't own one. All the little vacuum solenoids, EGR recirc valves, Evap purges, etc are these horrifically cheap plastic things that break all the time. The kicker? Mazda holds on to the copyrights for decades. Ever buy one of those solenoids? Try $180 wholesale. With the exception of a pretty weak front suspenstion (just don't touch any curbs) they are a great car, but having to buy many parts from the dealer is a deal-breaker for me.

Toyota/Scion? Bring it. Toyota didn't do luxury very well. Seems like with Lexus they added on a bunch of new-to-them technology that doesn't hold up in the reliability category.

Honda? Avoid the auto trannys from 98-06 and you're good to go.

VW? I laugh at the mere suggestion that a VW could even get a passport visa to be allowed to visit the region of Reliability for the holidays. When it comes to general auto repair, VW represents a full 36% of my gross sales. My next highest are Kia/Hyundai (general annoying stuff from poor assembly quality), Mazda.(mostly suspension work and CELs for Evap/EGR), and Acura (mostly the early 90s stuff - VSS and variable assist power steering, CELs for O2 sensors, etc.

Subys are pretty stout. Again, avoid the auto tranny. They (the auto trannys) last fairly well with good maintenance, but they are more or less disposable. When they go, its just going to be expensive.

The xB is interesting.

SERIOUSLY. I need to go drive one. Had never crossed my mind. And GOD BLESS YOU for suggesting something with a timing chain. There are few things in the world I hate more than changing a timing belt on a honda...unless it's after the berkeleyer has snapped. I hate that more.

Sounds like you haven't had yours long. Does maintenance seem like it would be honda-like in location/accesibility of 'wear' items? (alternator, starter, plugs/wires, etc.)

Thanks again for the suggestions. Also, I do dig the Mazda6 hatch, and was also impressed by the power in a buddy of mine's. PITA to work on is a definite minus for me though.

The only gripe I have with my wife's Scion xB is the labor time involved with doing a clutch job.

Details? Is this one of those "might as well just drop the motor" affairs?

Hmmmmm....

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/ctd/2121944211.html

poopshovel wrote: And GOD BLESS YOU for suggesting something with a timing chain. There are few things in the world I hate more than changing a timing belt on a honda...unless it's after the berkeleyer has snapped. I hate that more.

I will admit since I seconded the PT Cruiser that the timing belt on it was worse than on the Civic.

Sounds like you haven't had yours long. Does maintenance seem like it would be honda-like in location/accesibility of 'wear' items? (alternator, starter, plugs/wires, etc.)

Yes, maybe a bit easier on some things. There is a bit more room between the pulleys and the frame rail than a civic.

RE: your clutch question: When we're deciding on a car I look at typical repair labor times to get an idea of what I can expect in repair costs. The clutch on this one was above average labor time at about 7.5 hrs. Compare that to a Miata at 4.5 or a Mazda6 at 8.3 or a Civic at 4.5

Everything else is quick and painless. Typical xB repair times:
- Alternator 0.6hr
- A/C compressor 2hrs
- Exhaust manifold gasket (not common) 0.8hr
- Spark plugs 0.5hr

Typical parts prices I'm finding:
- A/C kit (condenser/drier, compressor, exp valve) $350
- Clutch kit $100 for a Daikin Exedy stock replacement, $160 for a Sachs upgrade
- Alternator $150-ish, but I would just have mine rebuilt locally.
- Coils $32 each x 4

Keep in mind that my prices are probably about 10-20% lower than you might find since I get this stuff wholesale.

I think the xB is a very interesting idea too. We took a long hard look at them. But I'll throw a vote in for the Honda Fit. We chose it over the xB. I think what really drove my wife to pick the Fit was that she hated the ergonomics inside, especially the dash layout.

Yeah, the Fit is kinda dorky looking. We've got an '08 w/5spd. In suburban driving, she averages 37mpg with it. On highway cruising, we'll get around 40mpg. It's extremely nimble and an E36 M3 load of fun to drive, considering it's an economy car. We've only got 30k miles on it, but it's completely trouble free. Very happy with it. Throw on a set of cool rims and it's not so dorky looking.

I really can't speak much for how hard it is to fix them, as we've only done oil changes, etc...to date, and I don't have the skills to do a lot of repair. But I'm counting on the reliability of Honda for the long run (combined with keeping up with needed maintenance).

+1 for xB. They're surprisingly fun to drive because of the close ratio box. They'll move ok, you can spin the motor and it won't complain, they handle decently, the driving position is actually pretty awesome once you get used to it, visibility is awesome, the shifter feels good, etc etc etc.

Get one, with the extra money left from your $10k budget, drop it maybe 2" and get a nice set of wheels and tint. Roll in style. Pick up the honeys.