$1100 A/C Line!!!?

The A/C in my work van quit last week. I recharged it and it promptly quit again. A little digging showed that the E-Bake cable had worn a hole in one of the rear A/C lines. We are still as busy as a one legged man at a barn dance so I dropped it off at the local Ford shop. They called back with a quote of $1100 to replace the line. $1100 to replace a piece of aluminum tube that is three feet long with a connector on each end. The damn line is only $180. What the hell is the other $920 for. I told them no thanks and that I was going to come get the van. Before I even got out of the door to go get it the shop called back. They could fix it for $350. What. So we have gone from $1100 to $350. Oh and the $500 coil that I also told them to keep became $150 installed. Not much in this word pisses me off more than jerking me around on pricing. Is this the service writer or the dealership.

/

Time to call the corporate office and ask for a referral to another dealership, assuming this isn't a private shop. If it is, report your experience on Angies List.

To repair the rear a/c in my Durango is $3000. I found that out before I bought mine and that was two quotes from two different shops. I was the one who got the quotes for a customer because we didn't do a/c work at my shop.

When I got the same quote at the second shop, I asked why it was so much, they said labor.

forget angies list, use google's rating system.

+1 for Google's ratings. When I need to find a shop for anything, I Google it. When Google displays the results, it also displays the ratings. Very few shops in my area use the Yellow Pages these days, and I don't think I could tell you where our phone book went. It seems like this is the norm for people these days.

What's involved in getting that little 3' piece of line out? Many times, it's not the 30 cent part, it's the many hours required to replace it that costs.

foxtrapper wrote: What's involved in getting that little 3' piece of line out? Many times, it's not the 30 cent part, it's the many hours required to replace it that costs.

+1... Also don't forget that single line that needs replacement, may need to be purchased as a bundle or the line that is damaged isn't sold as a separate piece.

Getting it out looks like about a 30 minute job. There isn't anything on top of it. Two fittings, one a snap fitting, one a flare. I could probably do it myself in under 2 hours including vacuuming and recharging the system. I just don't have time. I don't mind paying for quality work, but for the 1st quote to be $1100 and the second from the same place to be $350 sounds a little like BS to me. Maybe the service writer just screwed up the first quote. I have had this same dealership do a lot of work including two engine replacements. They do a good job. This one just was a little irritating.

Sounds like it may be a difference between the "book hours" and the "actual hours" to do the repair.

Ian F wrote: Sounds like it may be a difference between the "book hours" and the "actual hours" to do the repair.

Ugh, I'm sure I'll get blasted by guys that work in the biz, but I always though it was incredible that auto shops can legally charge you 5 hours for something that took less.

I know that dealers do this all the time. I used to race slot cars with a Chevy tech. Once in awhile he's show up all giddy because he'd had a good day and was able to 'book' around 16 hrs of work in less than an 8 hour shift. He hated working on vans as often jobs took longer than the 'book hours' say they should.

z31maniac wrote:

Ian F wrote: Sounds like it may be a difference between the "book hours" and the "actual hours" to do the repair.

Ugh, I'm sure I'll get blasted by guys that work in the biz, but I always though it was incredible that auto shops can legally charge you 5 hours for something that took less.

Easy answer: prove it.

My favorite mechanics have all charged actual labor hours and not book rates, and I will gladly pay more (per hour) for a shop that does that.

My favorite example of this practice is replacing the Lower Control Amr bushings on a MINI. The service manual procedure calls for dropping the entire subframe and the book rate is something like 6 hrs. However, because these are such a common item, dealer techs quickly found work-arounds and most have it down to under an hour. But rest assured, if you take a MINI to a dealer for this task, most will quote you the full book labor for the job. Hell, if left alone to do this, I've done it under 2 hrs.

yes we do charge full book hours regardless of the time it took to do something (i used to avg well over 100 hours a week while never working more than 40) however as i told customers who did complain normally someone with a 80 something pos well ok ill only charge you the 30 minutes this time instead of the 4 hours but next time u come in for a 5 hour clutch job and i have to drill out half the motor mount bolts and retap the bellhousing bolts cause of rust im gonna charge you the 10 it takes me to work on your car ok? then they understand. also your paying for a skill moreso than the work. fact is us as technicians are the ones with anywhere from 40 to 180k in tools who have had to learn all this.

My friend used to be a tech at the VW dealer. He loved doing CV boots. He'd get paid 1.25 hours for something that took him 10 minutes.

While I understand that sometimes it takes longer than book time, I have a feeling that happens rarely and most jobs take far less than book time. I expect to pay book time at a dealer, but get kinda torqued off when an indy shop charges it.

docwyte wrote: While I understand that sometimes it takes longer than book time, I have a feeling that happens rarely and most jobs take far less than book time. I expect to pay book time at a dealer, but get kinda torqued off when an indy shop charges it.

as someone who worked at an indy shop, like what katyb said, we saw those out of warranty, i.e. now older, rusty new england cars that fight you on the simplest of tasks.

i always wondered how anybody at a jeep dealer could ever make money on flat-rate when every single fastener you touch breaks.

KATYB wrote: fact is us as technicians are the ones with anywhere from 40 to 180k in tools who have had to learn all this.

Yep. A big reason I can do MINI LCA bushings quickly is I coughed up the money for the special MINI tool that makes the job go faster. Many of the tools I buy not because I need them and don't have other tools that will work, but because I'll see a tool, remember a task that took forever and see how this tool would have made that task faster.

Work on a few cars in your spare time and you can get by with a limited selection of tools. Work on a lot of different cars while watching the clock and you understand why pro wrenches have so much money tied up in tools and why they spend so much money on large boxes to keep them organized and easy to find (time = money).

KATYB wrote: yes we do charge full book hours regardless of the time it took to do something (i used to avg well over 100 hours a week while never working more than 40) however as i told customers who did complain normally someone with a 80 something pos well ok ill only charge you the 30 minutes this time instead of the 4 hours but next time u come in for a 5 hour clutch job and i have to drill out half the motor mount bolts and retap the bellhousing bolts cause of rust im gonna charge you the 10 it takes me to work on your car ok? then they understand. also your paying for a skill moreso than the work. fact is us as technicians are the ones with anywhere from 40 to 180k in tools who have had to learn all this.

But you averaged 100 billable hours in a 40-hour work week, so obviously even accounting for the extra hours dealing with corroded fasteners you're overcharging.

I do not agree with the practice, but don't think it's the mechanic's fault. It's the system that's built up around it. The mechanic doesn't have any more say in it than the customer; the dealers and manufacturers are the ones that have put us in this situation. It's easier for them, yes, but it's not right.

Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right.

Edit: Oh, and I am 100% okay with being billed the 10 hours for an unexpectedly hard job. As long as I'm billed 10 minutes for the unexpectedly easy one. That's the way "hourly" labor is supposed to work. Don't bill it as "hours" if it's actually piece work.

dculberson wrote:

KATYB wrote: yes we do charge full book hours regardless of the time it took to do something (i used to avg well over 100 hours a week while never working more than 40) however as i told customers who did complain normally someone with a 80 something pos well ok ill only charge you the 30 minutes this time instead of the 4 hours but next time u come in for a 5 hour clutch job and i have to drill out half the motor mount bolts and retap the bellhousing bolts cause of rust im gonna charge you the 10 it takes me to work on your car ok? then they understand. also your paying for a skill moreso than the work. fact is us as technicians are the ones with anywhere from 40 to 180k in tools who have had to learn all this.

But you *averaged* 100 billable hours in a 40-hour work week, so obviously even accounting for the extra hours dealing with corroded fasteners you're overcharging. I do not agree with the practice, but don't think it's the mechanic's fault. It's the system that's built up around it. The mechanic doesn't have any more say in it than the customer; the dealers and manufacturers are the ones that have put us in this situation. It's easier for them, yes, but it's not right. Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right. Edit: Oh, and I am 100% okay with being billed the 10 hours for an unexpectedly hard job. As long as I'm billed 10 minutes for the unexpectedly easy one. That's the way "hourly" labor is *supposed* to work. Don't bill it as "hours" if it's actually piece work.

The problem with your theory is that the mechanic and shop get paid the exact same (40 hours of pay for a 40 hour week) no matter how good they are at their job. It gives them no reason to spend a lot of money on tools, knowledge, or skill. A doctor with a lot of experience, fancy schooling, and fancy tools charges more than a doctor without those things. Ditto for a mechanic, except instead of charging more for the job, they charge the exact same amount as the shop down the street and get it done in half the time. This way, you pay the same for mechanic A to get it done in 3 hours as mechanic B to get it done in 6, but mechanic A has invested in better tools, knowledge, and skill. Mechanics wouldn't try to do the job better with better tools if they didn't get paid any more to do the job.

Just because SOME mechanics can earn 100 hours in a 40 hour week, doesn't mean they ALL do. I've known guys who used to get 100 hours a week consistently, but as they get out of date tools and knowledge, and their aging bodies can't get the same job done as fast, they are eventually 40-60 hour guys. Meanwhile, young guys who start with crummy tools, little knowledge, and little skill usually get fewer billed hours than hours they worked (30 hours in a 50 hour week). Eventually, they invest time and money to get better. The customer doesn't pay more for a bad mechanic and less for a good one, they pay for the average time the job takes.

Bryce

It's about the tools, experience, etc...

Oh, and warranty work. Ask any flat rate mechanic if they like warranty work. From what my mechanic buddies have told me, warranty work pays far less hours, often-times IMPOSSIBLE hours for the same work.

Gotta balance it.

I'm cool with flat rate. Makes things easy. That way you don't ask for a quote for a job and get an answer like:

"It'll be somewhere between $200 and $2000 dollars."

Flat rate, you don't like the quote, you walk, and do it yourself, or take it somewhere else.

dculberson wrote: Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right.

I disagree. The cost of schooling and equipment to do a job does and should play a part in the billing rate. To claim otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like that education or those tools were free.

Flate rate is a rip, for the mechanic NOT the customer.
Warranty work (from my experience at a Jeep dealer, and yet those torx bolts SUCK HARD) pays about 1/2 the time that customer pay jobs do. Why? It's the same car, right?
The last shop I worked at was a high-end European shop. They charged for billable hours. That's fine. That New Beetle headlight that took 10 minutes, you pay $9.50. If the lever broke and it took me 2 hours to replace it, now you pay $190. Fair is fair.
As others have said, if a tech is turning 60 hours in a 40 hour week he's good at what he does because he's been doing it for a while and has enough money wrapped up in tools to pay for a house. For those guys turning insane hours like 100, I'd bet they shop they are at is smart enough to let them specialize in a given area. That way the car is done as quick as possible by a guy that has done that job 100 times this month.

For those complainers, if you take a flight to L.A. tomorrow and your flight left on time but arived 25% early would you expect to pay more or less money? You paid for a service, be it transportation to L.A. or LCA bushing replaced and said service was performed correctly and to your satisfaction.

Typically, if you are getting hosed at a dealer or a shop, it's the service writer doing the hosing. The mechanic writes down the book time and the parts, the writer adds in "shop supplies" and other sundry charges depending on his whim or boat payment.

Ian F wrote:

dculberson wrote: Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right.

I disagree. The cost of schooling and equipment to do a job does and should play a part in the billing rate. To claim otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like that education or those tools were free.

I hear you brother. So, dculberson takes a lump of aluminum to a machine shop to have a bracket made he should only pay for the few minutes the operator spends setting up the CNC? That machine could easily cost $250,000 dollars.

DrBoost wrote:

Ian F wrote:

dculberson wrote: Don't go quoting tools, etc - that's completely outside the issue. If you want to count it that way, a lawyer could say "well, I have $200k in schooling, so I get to bill you more hours than I actually work." Doesn't make it right.

I disagree. The cost of schooling and equipment to do a job does and should play a part in the billing rate. To claim otherwise makes no sense whatsoever. It's not like that education or those tools were free.

I hear you brother. So, dculberson takes a lump of aluminum to a machine shop to have a bracket made he should only pay for the few minutes the operator spends setting up the CNC? That machine could easily cost $250,000 dollars.

You both completely mis-read what I said, but perhaps I wasn't clear. I mean you should not charge more hours for something just because you spent a lot of money to get to where you are. You can - and should - charge more per hour. If you re-read what I said, I compared it to a lawyer billing more hours than they actually worked, not billing more per hour. Over billing on the number of hours is considered fraud in any industry except auto repair and I don't know why. It could lose you your license to practice law, but it's industry standard if you're spinning a wrench.