1991 Civic Si - Won't start - ghost issue

I have a 1991 Honda Civic Si ( ef ) D16A6 with 160,000.

How the problem came to my attention:

I was driving to Florida from ATL, 2.5 hours into the trip, the car just stopped running. At a gas station i tested for spark, fuel and air, all were present. I had decided that it was possible the timing belt may have jumped. Called a mechanic to take the pos away and fix it. He said that it was the distributor and he fanagled it to work by taking parts from another one he had at the shop. This cost $320. I was pissed but took my lumps since it was the day before Christmas eve and i was in the middle of nowhere.

On the trip home i noticed the tach jumping around, telling me i had just been bent over by the mechanic. I was going to wait the tach issue out. A few weeks later, after driving for an hour and turning the car off, it wouldn't start again for awhile. Sometimes a few mins to 30 mins. It was time to replace the distributor.

Purchased a new one from parts store. The car ran as normal as it had prior to the FL trip, then last Saturday it died again. Same way it had on my trip to florid. I cannot get it to start and it doesn't turn over like it typically would when trying to start it. It seemed that the timing belt had jumped for sure.

I have checked to make sure the timing belt didn't slip. It has spark, fuel and air still. (The plugs are quite fouled due to the oil leaking into the cylinder, see below, but another set had no affect)

No codes, I have fuel.

Is there a component that can malfunction and cause the distributor to fail/break? Would a loose timing belt cause this sort of issue? I have one on order w/ a tensioner and wp.

Things to note: The engine loses appx. 1/2 quart of oil per hour. This is lost via the valve stem oil seals and presumably past the rings on cylinder four. (Cylinder 4 is the only one with a poor leak down test and its through the rings, roughly ~35%) The oil seals will be replaced once I receive them on Tuesday.

I am at the end of my rope. I cannot seem to find a D16A6 or ZC around ATL. If anyone knows a place that has a SOHC non-vtec ZC that will just bolt in with little modification, please let me know.

The distributor should mount horizontally on that engine and there is a set screw that keeps the rotor from walking off the distributor shaft. I know that when you buy a Genuine Honda rotor, there is a dab of threadlocker on the new set screw. Most aftermarket kits just come with a plain screw, which can eventually back off.

This happened to me on my '89 Si. It felt as if it had jumped timing. It may appear to have spark, but it won't be timed correctly.

When it happened to me, I was on a long hill and I tried to limp the car down to the bottom, dumping a lot of raw fuel into the cat, which subsequently melted down. I fixed the rotor, but the car still ran like crap. The cat was completely plugged. I also noticed that all of the undercoating above it had melted off. I was pretty close to burning up the car.

So, check your rotor, make sure there is Loctite on the screw and pull the catalytic converter and make sure it's not plugged.

2 Classic problems with these cars: The Igniter. Honda replaced many of the parts under an extended warrranty. (Igniter is located between the rotor and the base of the Dist. housing.) My car failed at 95k and was fixed under warranty. The car would start and run when it was cold then go intermittent when warm.

Second problem, which sounds like your car, is the Fuel pump relay. It also goes intermittent. My car had this problem as well, and failed at about the same mileage as yours.

Check out the Honda forums for more info.

Rog

What he said.

Seriously, there are two failure points on EF Hondas. One is the distributor, which includes the ignitor, coil, and the rotor screw mentioned. The other is the main relay. These are the cause of 90% of no start or weird issues that these cars have.

As for the oil consumption, that is another issue entirely. If not another D16A6, why not swap in a Z6 or Y8 if they are easier to find, they bolt right in and the wiring really isn't that difficult, plus you'll get a 20 hp boost.

You have fuel, but do you have 45 psi worth of fuel?

I'm gonna go for the main relay too.

And if you are using Dorman or equivalent aftermarket distributors, just smack yourself in the sack with a meat tenderizer. The pain will pass sooner.

I too immediately thought of the main relay, replacement requires an epileptic midget to replace it

Main relay.

In reply to evildky:

Honda EF main relay replacement procedure sans vehicular gynecology.

Step 1: Get the driver's seat as far back as you can.

Step 2: Get the fanciest 10mm ratcheting bendable-handle gearwrench you can find.

Step 3: Lie on the grass next to the car. Put the wrench on the bolt, take out the bolt.

Step 4: Undo the multi-connector. Throw the old relay and the bolt as far as you can.

Step 5: Connect the wiring for the new relay.

Step 6: Use a bread tie to hold the new relay in place.

Step 7: Use a pair of big zip ties to secure it.

We all know Honda forums lack intelligence. Which is why i brought my query here. Thank you for our thoughts.

Sonic: Would a Z6 or Y8 require any mod to the computer or associated sensors?

Anyone else: Would you know where to find a ZC? I only have been able to find once source in Jap for a ~$900.

Woody wrote: The distributor should mount horizontally on that engine and there is a set screw that keeps the rotor from walking off the distributor shaft. I know that when you buy a Genuine Honda rotor, there is a dab of threadlocker on the new set screw. Most aftermarket kits just come with a plain screw, which can eventually back off. This happened to me on my '89 Si. It felt as if it had jumped timing. It may appear to have spark, but it won't be timed correctly. When it happened to me, I was on a long hill and I tried to limp the car down to the bottom, dumping a lot of raw fuel into the cat, which subsequently melted down. I fixed the rotor, but the car still ran like crap. The cat was completely plugged. I also noticed that all of the undercoating above it had melted off. I was pretty close to burning up the car. So, check your rotor, make sure there is Loctite on the screw and pull the catalytic converter and make sure it's not plugged.

I would have never thought this could have happened, but it did. It appears that the screw backed out then destroyed the rotor button, yet it still sparked. You just saved this car from a cliff accident that was bound to happen. Again, never would have checked this considering all the signs pointed to some other issue. K.I.S.S. Thanks!

Glad I could help save another Civic Si. Did you take a look at the undercoating above the catalytic converter?

in the case of the fuel pump relay... there's no need to get rid of the OEM part ... the trouble getting it out and back in isn't going to change.. so to save some money all you have to do is re-flow the solder on all the connections on the relay it's then good to go ... don't have to buy a new one

OP brings up a very good point...is there a honda-specific forum that is not full of idiots? I found ef-honda.com, which is populated by several former challengers, and is pretty good. Any other good ones out there?

alaskangrown wrote: Sonic: Would a Z6 or Y8 require any mod to the computer or associated sensors? Anyone else: Would you know where to find a ZC? I only have been able to find once source in Jap for a ~$900.

First thing I wouldn't bother with DOHC ZC its way too old, expensive to make the power and sourcing some valvetrain parts can be an issue. My prefrance has always been D16Z6, D16Y8 or even JDM D15B SOHC VTEC (VTi), usually for about $400-600 you can pick up a decent motor. Do a water pump and timing belt, add a header, intake and cam all for under $1000.

Inorder to fit Z6 or y8 into 88-91 civic/crx you need to swap TB mount over, and some plugs for the coolant sensor and possibly modify your distributor (Z6) unless of course you want to run OBDI or 2 system in which case you need a OBDI to OBD0 harness converter, and OBDI ecu (p08 or P28 or alike) - OBDI system is the best option but can add about $250-350 to your bill. Where as chipping PM6 (stock Si ecu) and adding external vtec activation or sourcing PW0 or PR3 obd0 ecu can be little less expensive.

http://hondaswap.com/hybrid-ed-ef-da/

http://www.d-series.org/forums/

How to fix your Main Relay http://www.marklamond.co.uk/tech-honda/pgm-fi/main-relay/main-relay.htm

eg6ajk wrote: How to fix your Main Relay http://www.marklamond.co.uk/tech-honda/pgm-fi/main-relay/main-relay.htm

last bit from the link above:

Dry joints are caused by vibration and changes in temperature cracking the solder round a joint which has not flowed correctly. They have a characteristic look, and sometimes are very hard to spot, even to a trained eye.

Remember it is not the actual relay itself that is at fault, just the soldering. To repair the fault all we need to do is remove the old solder and re-apply fresh.

you actually don't need to remove the old solder (I do this kind of work for a living ) brush a little solder flux on each solder connection and apply the tip to the connection... the solder will melt, reflowing ... remove the tip .. in a second or two the solder hardens ... move on to the next connection ... repeat 'til all the connections have been re-flowed

Too late to the party, glad you found the problem. I concur with the two major failures that can strand en EF, thankfully both times the igniter went out in my Si I saw the warning signs of the tach jumping around and changed it before I was stranded. Bookmarked the link to how to fix the main relay. I am now so paranoid about the Main Relay that I bought a spare and put in the glove box. Of course with my dash trimmed for a cage the main relay can be changed sitting in the drivers seat. One plus to having a cage.

Woody wrote: Glad I could help save another Civic Si. Did you take a look at the undercoating above the catalytic converter?

I have not checked it recently but I have spent way to much time under the car. I think it might be missing. The can was pushing black soot/ solids out the back end. I presume this was brought on by the over abundance of oil in the cylinder due to it leaking past the valve oil seals. I plan on replacing the cat as soon as it will run for longer than a week without failing.

Car had a great interior and a macco it seems. I believe the previous owner was a nob and let the engine go to E36 M3.

LopRacer wrote: I am now so paranoid about the Main Relay that I bought a spare and put in the glove box.

Porsche owners always carry a spare DME relay.

once you've re-flowed the solder you're usually good to go.. the problem was poor solder joints to begin with

as to the distributor problem / bouncy tach... I swapped out the distributor 3 times and now gone to a OBD1 setup which required a mid '90's Civic distributor and the no-operating / bouncy tach is still there

The DOHC ZC has the problem of peak power beyond 7000 and a 90mm stroke. Mine blew up and closed a freeway.

RE: Where to get a motor: http://www.nadauto.com/

Hmotorsonline is also pretty good for the JDM stuff.

Easier, though, is a USDM OBD1 swap with an engine from a 92-95 Del Sol or Civic EX/Si.

NAD is in Atlanta, which is closer than California.