1LE Camaro vs. Toyota TRD 86?

In 2019 I am probably going to buy a dual duty cruiser/autocross car.  I'm going to keep it stock so I've been looking at cars I thought would be fun.

The 1LE Camaro seems to fit with the 335hp V6 and the SS suspension.

I just came back from the Texas State Fair and they had a car I didn't know existed, a TRD  modified 86.  Lower rear end ratio, lowered car, better shocks, bigger Brembo brakes, bigger sway bars, etc.

I don't imagine those guys are in the same class of autocross, but has anyone been able to see them both in action at the same time to see some relative times?

The Subie is cheaper and would be cheaper on consumables.

All the 2017+ twins got a different intake manifold, a few extra HP, and different rear end gear.

The Brembo brakes you can get on the BRZ as well.

For the most part the TRD is the BRZ Limited in a color not available for the Subaru.

There's a solid chance that those TRD goodies bump you a class or two in autocross. Dealer installed options aren't the same as factory options. If you don't care where you play, then it can be a good way to have some upgrades with a full warranty.

I wouldn't make a decision without driving them. They're quite different.

a v6 ILE camaro laps VIR 10 seconds faster than the BRX tS.

Classing-wise I *think* the stock V6 1LE is in the same class as the SS. The base 4-cyl is more favorably classed in DS with the 86/FRS/BRZ. The V6 is the better engine, although I think the 2L is not bad. I don't know where the 2L 1LE will end up.

I honestly don't think the 86 is more fun in the aspects you'd think it would be more fun. I think the characters of the engine are terrible too, every Camaro engine is much better.

At the Nationals this year, looks like a FRS was a little faster, last year it was a 2L Camaro by a fair margin.

For me, there would be no question. The weight difference would make the 86 a lot more fun. 

Just my opinion though

^ Try it though. I have a 3000lbs RX-8. On the *street* it didn't feel like the ~2700-2800lbs FRS I tried was more fun and I didn't really feel the weight savings. The Camaro is a big bigger, but it feels pretty nimble. The extra 300-400lbs is a bit noticeable, but it's as noticeable as I expected. To me comparing the weight of the 2300-2400lbs ND/Fiat 124 feels like a big, noticeable difference.

Hmm, not what I expected to hear.

I would expect the Camaro to be faster at VIR as that rewards more power, but on an autocross course I was thinking the weight might make it the same or slower as the TRD.

As to the TRD and the BRZ being the same packages, I don't think so.  The TRD was obviously lower than the BRZ and the sway bars looked smaller on the BRZ.  Also I don't think the BRZ can be had with the 4.30 rear end.

For street use the Camaro would definitely be a better choice just due to the greater HP and room inside.  Those huge wheels & tires plus brakes worry me too.

Overall I like the styling of the Twins better.  It's also a bigger hoot to do a drag type of pull.

I was forgetting that the 2L was going to be an option this year.  I haven't driven that, I may have to do that.  But from what I can see on the internet, the engine weights aren't all that different and since I'm not going to modify this car, I don't need the extra tunability of the turbo engine. (I think)

you sound pretty embedded into enthusiast motorsports already tbh, so forgive me for asking, but what are you are looking for with either car and where are you at so far as driver ability or confidence etc?  what do you want out of the car?  Is it purely for being competitive (and you are already experienced) or is it in part related to finally getting into solo ii etc?  what place is the new car supposed to fill in your garage?  Is it more of a daily or a weekend toy?

Some info from the Toyota media site:

Pure Fun: TRD Special Edition 
 
If USDA Certified Organic had a sportscar category, the 2019 86 TRD Special Edition would be its benchmark. 86 TRD Special Edition is North America’s highest performance 86 version thanks to some essential new parts: SACHS dampers, 12.8-/12.4-in. front/rear Brembo brakes, and exclusive 18 x 7.5-in. alloy wheels wrapped in Michelin Pilot Sport 4 tires (sized 215/40R18 85Y all around).
 
The SACHS dampers further sharpen the 86’s steering response and refine vehicle stability. Extra-large four-piston front, two-piston rear Brembo brakes composedly cull speed at a moment’s notice, and enrich the 86’s well-balanced cornering prowess. Its Michelin Pilot Sport 4 summer tires turn up the grip factor while aiding steering reactiveness and boosting tactility communicated through its small-diameter steering wheel.
 
Exclusively painted in Raven, and accented by a classic TRD tricolor graphic and TRD body kit (which includes front bumper, side sills, rear bumper/diffuser, and spoiler), the TRD Special Edition looks athletic too. Also standard: a TRD exhaust with brushed stainless steel tips. 
 
Opening the doors reveals a new red and black-trimmed telescoping steering wheel with red contrast stitching; red and black sport bucket seats with side bolsters; Granlux suede-like covering atop the instrument cluster; “TRD” logo embroidered on passenger side instrument panel; red contrast stitching throughout; and red seatbelts.
 
Production will be limited to only 1,418 units. 86 TRD Special Edition will have a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $32,420.
 

Which, other than the wheels and tires, sounds a lot like the BRZ Performance Package that first appeared for 2017.

From the Subaru media site:

New Performance Package
For track driving, Subaru offers a new Performance Package for the 2017 BRZ Limited with the 6-speed manual transmission. This comprehensive chassis upgrade features SACHS® Performance shock absorbers to enhance handling and steering stability and wider alloy wheels (17-in x 7.5-in aluminum versus the standard 17-in x 7.0-in). A high-performance braking system using Brembo® rotors, 4-piston front calipers and 2-piston calipers enhances stopping power, fade resistance, and pedal feel.

Also, the BRZ (all of them) has had a 4:30 final drive since the 2017 model year. Before that it had a 4:10.

If you are already regionally/nationally competitive driver looking for fastest ride in stock class then all this is worthless, but if not thought i'd write this:

Bored and going to give 2 cents i didn't give before.  Toyotas design philosphy has always been make more technical cars that train drivers but aren't exciting in daily life (sadly), they work if you work and fit as a weekend toy because they feel great if pushed, but feel slightly depressed if they aren't.  Mazda for example has a better way of making a car feel lively if pushed to 4-6/10th, with every Toyota i've owned in stock trim they feel depressed if they are pushed less then 8/10th but then wakeup and become a talented pianist at above that.   Graining when you use them as a basic tool but insightful and willing if you use them like a instrument.  

Chevys and really all American muscle cars change the odd boring phase for normal comfort, part of this is size and part of it is engine sound (atleast with anything over 4cyl) and other hard to quantify aspects, its a combination of things.  They make better GT cars because you are more apt to relax in them even if the rides a bit harsh you enjoy basic day to day driving at low-moderate speeds.  The nature the car is more in tune with normal, responsible, legal driving.  That said i do not know of many other brands that forces in stock form to make oneself work on drive harder better and work on stuff like weight transfer then Toyotas, on account of how bi-polar they are in daily life vs at a track. 

Toyotas are more like a emotionally needy but wonderful GF and Muscle cars (Chevy in this case) are more like a old buddy, both have their ups and down, their highlights and limitations.

So ya that would be why i'd ask about your own experience and use for the car.  If you are going to drive it regularly the Camaro makes more sense regardless, if you are using it as a toy, something to drive on special occasions where you only care about driving, or a tool to learn about driving better then the Toyota is much more likely to suit that need. 

David S. Wallens said:

Also, the BRZ (all of them) has had a 4:30 final drive since the 2017 model year. Before that it had a 4:10.

It's almost like someone tried to tell him that in the 2nd post. 

Sidewayze said:

For me, there would be no question. The weight difference would make the 86 a lot more fun. 

Just my opinion though

The engine is a bit annoying on the street with the torque dip. I'm waiting to see if they release a 2nd gen twin, and I may get back in one. But if it's just a slightly more powerful engine, the only way I'd do it would be to add boooooooooooooooooosssst.

I'm no autocross classing expert, but it seems to me like you'd have more classing options with the Camaro than the Frisbee.

With the 86, you'd have whatever stock/street class it gets placed in and then if you wanted to modify the car you'd end up in a modified class.

With the Camaro, you'd have similar street and modified classes, but also CAM as an option with it's open rule book.

A few mods will wake up the 86 but not sure what that will do for autocross classing. A header and tune on mine made it feel about how it should have from the factory. 

I haven't driven the V6 Camaro but I imagine it being a better road car. My BRZ need to be really wrung out to get any speed out of it and I don't find myself in that 5000rpm+ range as often as I thought I would.

But holy man - it is awesome on the track or even in the dirt. So far it's also been reliable and cheap to run (still on stock sizes tires/brakes). 

I cross-shopped an EB Mustang and after the BRZ and ND Miata - the Mustang was a no-go for my. Felt huge and did not feel as fast as it was. I have similar feelings about the 4cyl Camaro.  However - the V6 is a sonorous gem.

Snrub said:

Classing-wise I *think* the stock V6 1LE is in the same class as the SS. The base 4-cyl is more favorably classed in DS with the 86/FRS/BRZ. The V6 is the better engine, although I think the 2L is not bad. I don't know where the 2L 1LE will end up.

I honestly don't think the 86 is more fun in the aspects you'd think it would be more fun. I think the characters of the engine are terrible too, every Camaro engine is much better.

At the Nationals this year, looks like a FRS was a little faster, last year it was a 2L Camaro by a fair margin.

 

The BRZ had Conti-sports and the Camaro didn’t.  It was EXTREMELY wet during their runs the first day.  On the second day, on a drying course, the Camaro very nearly closed the gap.  

As I mentioned in the first post and since, this will stay stock.   It's a dual duty cruisin' & autocross toy.  I have more dedicated autocross/track toys.

As a matter of fact I'm hoping this will give me enough pleasure to allow me to finish an engine swap in the Z and the S.

Other than tires there will be no changes so I want whichever one will be the fastest in an autocross.  My wife will drive this car more than me.

According to the literature at the Fair the 4:10 is still the standard rear end in both the 86 and the BRZ.  It specifically stated that the TRD got a 4:30 for more low end power.

That same literature also said the TRD upgrades were different than ever before available.

Yes, my wife nixed the Mustang as "too big & floaty"  She said "The Mustang is supposed to be a sporty car, this looks like a luxury car."  I had to agree although I prefer Ford products over Cheby.

https://www.motor1.com/news/78420/2017-subaru-brz-gets-small-changes-makes-a-big-difference/

"Power for the 2017 model has gone up to—wait for it— 205 horsepower and 156 lb-ft of torque, which is basically Subaru saying, "we know what we're doing, just let us keep refining this machine our way." Yes, that's a very small increase, but it should make the BRZ feel much quicker, especially with the new 4.3:1 final drive ratio in the 6-speed manual. The minimal rise in power comes courtesy of new valves, camshaft, and cylinder heads, as well as a new aluminum intake manifold, and redesigned exhaust manifold. The BRZ has never been, and will never be, a car for stoplight heroics, but if you know what you're doing on winding roads, you don't need anything more than what the BRZ offers. If all those improvements aren't enough, there's a new Performance Package available solely on the Limited model with the 6-speed manual. The package includes Brembo calipers, larger front and rear rotors, SACHS performance shock absorbers, and black 17 x 7.5 alloy wheels. Pricing on the Performance Package hasn't been announced, but I can't imagine it'd be astronomical, probably falling in the $1,200-$1,600 range."


Go talk to any of the salespeople at that dealership and see if they know much about the car. It's very possible they put out old marketing material.

The redline didn't increase, so the FD ratio makes it lose a few mph up top in 2nd gear as well.

Drive both and see.  I absolutely berkeleying love my FR-S.  Perfect driving position and makes me smile every time I drive it.  For me the Camaro is too big on the outside and too hard to see out of from the inside.  Not my cup of tea.

Out of those two I’d go 1LE with the requirements you stated above. 

parker said:

Drive both and see.  I absolutely berkeleying love my FR-S.  Perfect driving position and makes me smile every time I drive it.  For me the Camaro is too big on the outside and too hard to see out of from the inside.  Not my cup of tea.

I have, only not with the newer TRD package on the twins and only with the stock V6 Camaro.  I haven't found one with the 1LE package.  I drove the older performance package BRZ and back to backed it with the WRX.  BRZ felt light and nimble and the WRX felt numb.

Camaro has been working on it's claustrophobic feel and the outward visibility feel is much better on the newer cars than the older cars.   A friend got rid of his daughter's 4 year old Camaro due to visibility concerns only to buy a 2018 for himself because it had changed so much.  I've only test driven an older on so I can't personally speak to the differences only to say the only real complaint I had with the Camaro was the ridiculously high side doors.

The Camaro is claustrophobic.  It is hard to see out of and doesn’t have the room inside you would think.

Both cars are relatively buried in their autocross classes with the TRD86 in CS and the V6 1LE Camaro in FS. 

IMHO if you can shop for both, go look at the 2018 V61LE,  buddy in Houston just bought one this week as his backup DD, track car combo and was singing the praises of the deals available right now.

He's a mutual friend of Mazdaduece and myself, and has past ties with Bondurant, Roush and others. His opinion carries major weight with me and he piped in to tell me the deals are so good right now because I was passingly interested in the 2019 2.0 1LE. 

IMHO, buy the 2018 V6 1LE and scoop up a deal while you can.

205HP on track will get boring and you're going to pay a premium to get one thanks to the Toyobaru Fanboys.

also GM has track warranty and Toyota and Subaru have no such program i'm aware of.