1LE Camaro vs. Toyota TRD 86?

spacecadet said:

Also GM has track warranty and Toyota and Subaru have no such program i'm aware of. 

 

As someone who tracks a FRS I give this a lot of value. As do others who do track their cars who I’ve spoken with. I have to give GM a lot of credit for this as I know of no other manufacturer that does this (even the Porsche GT cars). 

Having said that, if this is an autox car, not sure it matters all that much as you won’t be placing the level of stress on the car vs a track setting. I’m sure there has to be a few twins out doing autox near you - why not see if you can ask for a drive?

bcp2011 said:

spacecadet said:

Also GM has track warranty and Toyota and Subaru have no such program i'm aware of. 

 

As someone who tracks a FRS I give this a lot of value. As do others who do track their cars who I’ve spoken with. I have to give GM a lot of credit for this as I know of no other manufacturer that does this (even the Porsche GT cars). 

Having said that, if this is an autox car, not sure it matters all that much as you won’t be placing the level of stress on the car vs a track setting. I’m sure there has to be a few twins out doing autox near you - why not see if you can ask for a drive?

I thought up above he mentioned tracking the car as well, I see he has other cars for that. 

ford states in the focus ST manual in roughly these words "this is the recommended maintenance interval if you're going to take this vehicle on track. Track driving may incur damage to the vehicle not covered under warranty" 

Ford has stepped up on the GT350's that had issues best I could tell and they were fixing RS head gaskets on cars that had tunes and mods. 

this is a 100% turn from FCA who from what i understand say "if you take this vehicle on a track your warranty is null"


 

spacecadet said:

go look at the 2018 V61LE, 

What in the heck is a V61LE?

I've driven the BRZ "in anger" and it's a Miata with a back seat, which isn't a bad thing.

The 1LE intrigues me because I'm using the engine (LFX) as a transplant in places it doesn't belong.  I'm waiting on the Copart near me to have the proper Camaro show up and then I'm taking it home.  That seems to be the best way to get all the parts I need at one time and save a bunch of money.  No, it's not the best configuration, but it's the cheapest way to get started.

Both seem to have their pluses.  It seems the Camaro would be better on road trips, but without seeing one run, it seems to me the 86 would be the most fun at autocross.

My wife likes both, but seems to be leaning towards the Camaro a little bit.  I was just hoping to  find someone who'd driven both, or seen how they both handle on the same course and could compare times, who could maybe make it definitive as to which way is best.

carguy123 said:

spacecadet said:

go look at the 2018 V61LE, 

What in the heck is a V61LE?

2018 Camaro V6 1LE, a year older than the 2019 1LE V6/2.0 you sat in at the state fair, which I also saw last weekend. I didn't pop the hood so i'm not sure if the car at the fair was a 2.0 or a V6 car. they look identical. 

the 1LE for 2019 is available with all 3 engines, so I was notating the engine you referred to in your first post. 

the 2019 V6 1LE and 2.0 1LE cars have the same suspension(from the SS base as you said) and exterior looks. where the SS 1LE gets the trick magride. 


Fun at autox is subjective, I personally don't go to an autox all day to not be competitive, I at least want to compete with my co driver. So to me, buying a 200Hp car that's not favorably classed isn't fun when you could by the correct car for the class(2019ND2) for similar money and it's faster. 
 

So having the 300+hp of the camaro V6 would be more appealing to me than the twins, I actually like the 2.0 car but would probably buy the mustang performance package ecoboost  with magride over both since it classes in DS. 

also... your post about motor transplanting the LFX has me majorly scratching my head.... what is your goal with these cars then?

 

carguy123 said:

I've driven the BRZ "in anger" and it's a Miata with a back seat, which isn't a bad thing.

The 1LE intrigues me because I'm using the engine (LFX) as a transplant in places it doesn't belong.  I'm waiting on the Copart near me to have the proper Camaro show up and then I'm taking it home.  That seems to be the best way to get all the parts I need at one time and save a bunch of money.  No, it's not the best configuration, but it's the cheapest way to get started.

Both seem to have their pluses.  It seems the Camaro would be better on road trips, but without seeing one run, it seems to me the 86 would be the most fun at autocross.

My wife likes both, but seems to be leaning towards the Camaro a little bit.  I was just hoping to  find someone who'd driven both, or seen how they both handle on the same course and could compare times, who could maybe make it definitive as to which way is best.

I have no idea about autocross classing but the Subaru engine is so much less enjoyable in regular daily driving, assuming you don't supercharge it, which it sounds like you won't. The drone alone would make me sad if I had to commute in it, let alone take a road trip. Other than that the car is perfect.

Just to clarify, the exterior appearance of the 2L and V6 is still a little different than the SS. The 1LE package with any engine brings a flat black hood, but the front bumper is different in the smaller engined cars.  There are also larger wheels, staggered width, summer tires and 4-piston calipers. Other things the 2L/V6 1LE get are the cooling setup from the SS (bigger rad, trans, diff cooler), better seat/wheel material, etc.

The base SS has regular shocks, but can be upgraded to magnetic shocks. I have a deal in progress for such a car. The SS 1LE/ZL1 have a more aggressively tuned magnetic shock setup.

At least where I am, the factory incentives on 2018s are roughly the same as they were for much of the year, but more than the 2019s will have until at least March. I don't like the front end on the 2019s, I'd much prefer a 2018.

 

also... your post about motor transplanting the LFX has me majorly scratching my head.... what is your goal with these cars then?

 

The cars with the transplanted engine will be fun cars with lots of autocross and DE.

The idea is to get my wife something (the Subie or Camaro) that will be fun AS-IS and can give me some fun while the other cars are laid up.

I understand the subjectiveness of autocross and while all the extraneous info is nice to see (I've learned a couple of things), really what I'd like to see are comparative numbers between the 2 cars on the same autocross course on the same day.  That might be the info that decides one car over the other.

I never see the 2 cars on the same course in the same day here.  As a matter of fact I'm not 100% certain I've ever seen the 1LE on an autocross course.  What I thought was one, might just have been an appearance package and an aftermarket suspension.

The only way to make a valid comparison is with the same driver on the same tires.  Even then different courses might favor one or the other.  If it's for the wife, the only thing that matters is which one SHE likes better.

What would seeing them on the same course really tell you anyway? You'd be able to compare raw times, but raw times don't matter if they won't be competing in the same class. If autocross is this important, shouldn't you be looking at times that these cars run in their respective classes, and see how that compares to the class leaders?

But, if you really want something close to a head to head, C&D just did their Lightning Lap with the 4 cyl 1LE and a BRZ ts (Brembos, Sachs dampers, lowering springs,etc). It's VIR, not an autocross, but the 1LE beat the BRZ by 8.5 seconds per lap.

AnthonyGS said:

In reply to carguy123 :

Even both cars on the same day won’t mean a lot if driving skills aren’t on par.  I’d just take the wife and drive both and get tye one you like most.  I’ve personally always felt that getting a pony or musclecar without the horses or muscle isn’t nearly as fun.  A 1le SS is a real weapon of tire destruction.  A 4 banger pony/muscle car is meh.... 

But he's comparing two 4-cylinder cars, not a 4-cyl vs 8-cyl. The 4-cylinder 1LE doesn't seem meh at all to me, especially considering it would destroy the Toyota 86 in any competitive situation.

dculberson said:

 

But he's comparing two 4-cylinder cars, not a 4-cyl vs 8-cyl. The 4-cylinder 1LE doesn't seem meh at all to me, especially considering it would destroy the Toyota 86 in any competitive situation.

ANY is a big word.  The big variables are driver and tires, followed by course design.  But a quick look at some autocross results shows the 86 holds up just fine.

STM317 said:

What would seeing them on the same course really tell you anyway? You'd be able to compare raw times, but raw times don't matter if they won't be competing in the same class. If autocross is this important, shouldn't you be looking at times that these cars run in their respective classes, and see how that compares to the class leaders?

 

But, if you really want something close to a head to head, C&D just did their Lightning Lap with the 4 cyl 1LE and a BRZ ts (Brembos, Sachs dampers, lowering springs,etc). It's VIR, not an autocross, but the 1LE beat the BRZ by 8.5 seconds per lap.

High speed track is probably not a good comparison for autocross?

So adding some math and real world numbers into the discussion. 

these are the kind of deals available on 2018 Camaro V6 1LE right now, which stickers around $32k to start. 

$25k Philly area

$28k Duluth, GA

$27k Dublin, CA

Thanks to the black hood the 1LE are easy to spot on autotrader and I found these in 2 minutes searching nationally for a manual V6 car new 2017-2018. 

the TRD GT86 stickers at $31k+ if you can find one... and I am confident the dealerships will try to pad that number. 

unless you really want a new twin, the new Camaro is a better value of comfort and features, with more power and you can't ignore the track warranty. 

 

spacecadet said:

So adding some math and real world numbers into the discussion. 

these are the kind of deals available on 2018 Camaro V6 1LE right now, which stickers around $32k to start. 

$25k Philly area

$28k Duluth, GA

$27k Dublin, CA

Thanks to the black hood the 1LE are easy to spot on autotrader and I found these in 2 minutes searching nationally for a manual V6 car new 2017-2018. 

the TRD GT86 stickers at $31k+ if you can find one... and I am confident the dealerships will try to pad that number. 

unless you really want a new twin, the new Camaro is a better value of comfort and features, with more power and you can't ignore the track warranty. 

 

 

That is a heck of a lot of car for $25k. Talk about bang for the buck!

Be careful on this prices. Reading through the fine print on the 25K one and basically they just listed the MSRP minus every single incentive possibly eligible even though most of them are exclusive of one another. You would only get close to that price if you are currently a mustang owner with a costco membership and you lease Otherwise, it's up around 28-29K 

bmw88rider said:

Be careful on this prices. Reading through the fine print on the 25K one and basically they just listed the MSRP minus every single incentive possibly eligible even though most of them are exclusive of one another. You would only get close to that price if you are currently a mustang owner with a costco membership and you lease Otherwise, it's up around 28-29K 

always do your diligence for sure and it was why I listed multiple, but that's not including any discount from the dealership and a buddy of mine bought one for what he claimed to be a great deal last week. Still, the value is there for $28-29k and that's cheaper than what the 86TRD will probably end up going for. 

I don't hate twins.... but I certainly do NOT love them. ever since I ditched my mazdaspeed 3 in Jan 2016 I missed the torque, and it's what pushed me towards the ST over other good used options. I am not sold on the noise these LFX V6 engines make, but the value is definitely there on them.  

Dave M said:

STM317 said:

What would seeing them on the same course really tell you anyway? You'd be able to compare raw times, but raw times don't matter if they won't be competing in the same class. If autocross is this important, shouldn't you be looking at times that these cars run in their respective classes, and see how that compares to the class leaders?

 

But, if you really want something close to a head to head, C&D just did their Lightning Lap with the 4 cyl 1LE and a BRZ ts (Brembos, Sachs dampers, lowering springs,etc). It's VIR, not an autocross, but the 1LE beat the BRZ by 8.5 seconds per lap.

High speed track is probably not a good comparison for autocross?

Agreed. But nobody is putting up better comparisons. One data point seems better than no data to me, even if it's not a perfect example of the OP's intended usage. This is all subjective anyway. OP is going to have to try them both (or his wife will) to really decide.

I hadn't originally been comparing two 4 cylinder cars.  I had totally forgotten that for 2019 the 4 was going to be an option.

Regardless I'll still probably get the V6 just because that the engine I'm transplanting so it would be good to have a running, driving example to be able to compare things like wiring and/or ecu swaps.

I would expect the Camaro to cream the BRZ on a track such as VIR.

And even with 2 different drivers there's a lot to learn by seeing the cars on an autocross course.  You can see how the cars take different lines and handle the same area.  At least the autocrosses I go to (definitely never an SCCA event) the drivers seem to be of similar talents or at least we don't see the 35 mph tops newbie driving around with 10 minute lap times which can tell me a lot about the way they handle and how much of a handful they are.

If the magnetic shocks are an option that would definitely be the way to go.

If you don't plan on modifying right out of the box anytime soon, 1LE no question.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Remember they downsized the camaro when it moved to the new platform; they’re a few hundred pounds lighter than they used to be and “only” about 600lbs or so heavier than the 86 now. 

In reply to dculberson :

Correct.

Camaro 2.0 Specs: 3445lb curb weight, 272hp @ 5500 rpm, 260ft-lbs from 1700-5500rpm, 12.5lb/hp, Tires- F: 245/40 R: 275/35

BRZ/FRS Specs: 2834lb curb weight, 205hp @ 7000rpm, 150ft-lbs from 2900-7000 (but it dips near 130ft-lbs from 3200-4700rpm), 13.8 lb/hp, Tires- 215/40 all around

The massive amount of useable torque in the Camaro would really appeal to me vs the infamous "torque dip" in the Frisbee that's right in the heart of the rev range. That would make it a much more enjoyable daily for me, and would make it easier to drive fast in an autocross. As a daily driver, it would be easier to be caught with your pants down in the Toyobaru. And you'd have to keep it "on a boil" to be fast, and that requires more skill and less margin for error. The Camaro will cover up mistakes while the Toyobaru will highlight them. I'm sure some would be bored if they're not wringing it out @ 10/10ths and bouncing off the rev limiter all the time though so YMMV.

In 2017, at the SCCA Solo Narionals, a 2.0t Camaro RS absolutely DOMINATED the Frisbee twins.  This year, with the Monsoon that happened, a couple of people on the “perfect” tire got way out in front on the Camaro.  On the 2nd day, with a drying, but still wet course, the Camaro nearly made it all back up.  There’s a pretty good thread by the Camaro owner over on the 6th gen forum board.

In reply to STM317 :

Y'all are talking about a 2.0 Camaro but OP is getting the V6 for the same money as the Toyobaru!

For some reason, I thought it was an RS, but it was just a LT.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=477232