2 months at an import repair garage

I plan to get fully flamed for this, but I have a list of cars that I will never own because maintenance is ridiculous. Flame away. I just thought if any of you were considering these vehicles... don't.

Mazda 3. Its not so much that they're hard to fix, but they keep breaking. We have 5 at the shop. And I'm not talking about little stuff... one has a broken motor mount after hitting a pothole. It didn't dent the wheel or throw the alignment off... it sacrificed the motor mount. And don't even get me started on how you have to remove the A/C compressor to get the pass side control arm off.

Nissan Xterra. Any car that requires you to remove that much crap to replace valve cover seals that fail every 70k needs to be shot. Plus, the intake you have to remove has two water lines smashed up against the firewall (I just cut them after an hour), and has two electrical connectors UNDER the intake. All of the vacuum and water lines are ATTACHED to the bottom of the intake, so they have to be removed.

Any GM FWD with the quad 4. cracked heads, a water pump that is estimated to take 6.6 hours to replace, but takes 9... you have to remove the intake, exhaust, and motor mount just to get to the water pump.

VW new beetle. I've worked on some older VWs, mostly A2s and never had too much trouble. But replacing the alternator requires draining the coolant, removing the lower rad hose, and then (get this...) removing the entire front bodywork; BOTH fenders and the front bumper. Changing the timing belt is such a chore. I expect to have to remove the upper engine mount, but to have to remove the actual motor bracket on the engine (which is 5" wide in a space 2" wide... not kidding.) Then to get the timing belt on, you have to remove both the tensioner AND the cam sprocket, then jockey them into place while holding the cam on its mark and fishing two bolts into their homes. Then once you get the motor mount back in place (if you didn't break off the cheap bolts getting them out) you have to use new bolts every time since they are torque to yield.

Chrysler concorde/intrepid or any variation thereof. If you've ever tried to replace a transmission in one of those, you already know. Not to mention that the knock sensor is in the valley, and the water pump is behind the timing chain. If you want to replace the knock sensor, it requires tearing the engine down to the shortblock. If your water pump fails, it means your oil becomes coolant soup and fries the bearings really quickly.

VW B5 Passat. ABS modules that fry expensively, non intuitive electronics, and terrible room for maintenance. I have been trying for a week to diagnose a low oil pressure light. The pressure is fine, the sensor is fine. You know what fixed it? Replacing the ABS module. Don't ask. Its a known issue on VW forums. And that throttle body/IAC/TPS unit on the 30v? Fuhgettaboutit. Half the stuff on that car can't be touched without VAG. I can't even remove that throttle body without having VAG to recalibrate it. The suspension is inspired with fantastic geometry, but complicated. The front LCA is two separate arms, each with their own non-servicable ball joint and non-replacable bushing. You can't even lube the ball joints, and the bushings are soft and spongy.

Anyone care to add? Anyone care to disagree?

Sound like you're mlldly disgusted, but posts like this could be helpful for someone considering owning one of those vehicles.

Remind me to sell the wife's 2005 Beetle before the timing belt service is due....

New Beetle is a car that was engineered not to be repaired. Doesn't matter if you're talking about the drivetrain or the body. I hate those things with a passion.

Aren't all the Intrepids dead from tranny failures by now?

ddavidv wrote: New Beetle is a car that was engineered not to be repaired by anyone other than Volkswagen.

FTFY. I remember reading an aritcle in one of the rags around the same time the New Beetle came out that the VW group was seriously considering making thier cars unrepairable by their customers/competing shops by making proprietary tools and hardware. Yep, even down to the bolts and nuts. Sounds like they partially accomplished this, though to be fair I've never seen a VW/Audi engine bay. Not even an air-cooled one.

1)Before deriding ANY car please take the time to learn what the telltales are for previous accident damage. And I don't mean obviously poor work I mean done right enough you have to really look. After having owned a body shop and worked on the same make at a dealership for the last ten years I can tell you its usually not the manufacturer but the previous repairer thats to blame.

2)Having worked as a tech for 16 years I know that folks going to an independent shop usually only go when 5 or 6 things go wrong. There are some exceptions but most independent customers are simply too cheap/broke to keep up with thier cars. They are usually the 2nd or 3rd owners and the cars have high mileage. Therefore the cars you see are likely below average before they even get in the door.

3)

curtis73 wrote: VW new beetle. But replacing the alternator requires draining the coolant, removing the lower rad hose, and then (get this...) removing the entire front bodywork; BOTH fenders and the front bumper.

curtis73 wrote: Changing the timing belt is such a chore. I expect to have to remove the upper engine mount, but to have to remove the actual motor bracket on the engine (which is 5" wide in a space 2" wide... not kidding.) Then to get the timing belt on, you have to remove both the tensioner AND the cam sprocket, then jockey them into place while holding the cam on its mark and fishing two bolts into their homes.

You're doing it wrong. Did my Mom's '99 in just over an hour with no lift.

curtis73 wrote: Chrysler concorde/intrepid or any variation thereof. If you've ever tried to replace a transmission in one of those, you already know.

When I worked for a Dodge dealer (only 3 months, thank dog!) I did 3 a day. I called it "the other 30k service" because they all seemed to need them at almost exactly that interval.

curtis73 wrote: VW B5 Passat. Fuhgettaboutit. Half the stuff on that car can't be touched without VAG. I can't even remove that throttle body without having VAG to recalibrate it.

Nothing new there. The newer the car the more dealer-specific the programming is. Theres a reason dealerships charge more-we have all the best toys!

curtis73 wrote: The suspension is inspired with fantastic geometry, but complicated. The front LCA is two separate arms, each with their own non-servicable ball joint and non-replacable bushing. You can't even lube the ball joints, and the bushings are soft and spongy.

I think you're confusing "spongy" with "it must be bad". That design is becoming more and more common because it works quite well. It WILL eventually clunk, but replace the four arms and you're fine. And whens the last time you saw a greaseable joint on ANY car?

Do you get paid flat rate? Sounds like you might need some motivation to get your ass in gear!

On the flip side............what's easy to fix? I'd ask what is a good reliable car that doesn't need a lot of work but then you would likely never see them in the first place.

How's the Mercedes running these days?

Feedyurhed wrote: On the flip side............what's easy to fix? I'd ask what is a good reliable car that doesn't need a lot of work but then you would likely never see them in the first place.

survey says! . . . . the answer is always miata. . .

curtis73 wrote: I plan to get fully flamed for this, but I have a list of cars that I will never own because maintenance is ridiculous. Flame away. I just thought if any of you were considering these vehicles... don't. Mazda 3. Its not so much that they're hard to fix, but they keep breaking. We have 5 at the shop. And I'm not talking about little stuff... one has a broken motor mount after hitting a pothole. It didn't dent the wheel or throw the alignment off... it sacrificed the motor mount. And don't even get me started on how you have to remove the A/C compressor to get the pass side control arm off. Any GM FWD with the quad 4. cracked heads, a water pump that is estimated to take 6.6 hours to replace, but takes 9... you have to remove the intake, exhaust, and motor mount just to get to the water pump. Anyone care to add? Anyone care to disagree?

I have a friend that works in a Mazda dealership. He does not have a lot of kind things to say about late model Mazdas.

Expecting an all day nightmare (from what I'd heard) I did the water pump on my sons Q4 in just over 4 hrs, lying on my back, in a cold shop a few winters ago.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: I think you're confusing "spongy" with "it must be bad". That design is becoming more and more common because it works quite well. It WILL eventually clunk, but replace the four arms and you're fine. And whens the last time you saw a greaseable joint on ANY car? Do you get paid flat rate? Sounds like you might need some motivation to get your ass in gear!

Not at all... I'm paid flag time, but you misunderstood my intent. I'm a classic car guy. Give me a rusty hump of random car and an idea, and I can churn out a fabricated, restored, modified, perfect vehicle with 6 months and $40k. This repair shop stuff has me baffled. I never claimed to be the best, I'm just commenting on the worst of what I've seen.

Like the VW oil temp sensor that uses a 23mm socket. Nobody makes a 23mm socket. It doesn't exist. Fortunately 15/16" is close enough to work.

And my point with the spongy bushings was not that it can't be fixed, its that you have to buy the entire arm. I can buy a replacement bushing for a classic for $3.95 and spend 0.2 labor hours replacing it. The Passat was 3.4 hours to replace all four, and each arm cost $231. You have to loosen the front subframe just to get the rear LCA bolts out.

Put it this way... this Passat owner is into us for $2000 for an ABS light, four LCAs, rear brakes, and diag on an OPS.

On a 65 Bel Air, that would be a couple hundred. The only way it would be $2k is if they asked me to fabricate custom control arms.

My full point is this... Old cars = easy to work on. New cars = remarkably advanced and better, but very difficult to work on. Can't we have both? Why on earth do they make it so damn hard? Seriously... that LCA would be just as effective if they didn't route the fuel and brake lines in such a way that required dropping part of the subframe to get the bolt out. All they had to do was route the fuel lines 1" to the left and it would be a non issue.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: You don't need to remove the nose for this job (VW tech when they were new) but even so removing the nose is dead simple. If it takes you over .6 you need to get better tools.

Alldata lists it as a 3.7 hour job. Can you explain how you can do it in 0.6?

And removing the nose is not as simple as it seems. The shear number of screws it takes (and considering that the nose, bumper, and both fenders are one piece) means that you can't even disassemble in 0.6 if you were on crack.

I'm a good tech... I can double my hours, but to beat Alldata's labor hours by 6-fold? Damn... you must be a miracle worker. If you can drain coolant, disassemble a nose, pull hoses, replace an alternator, reassemble, refill coolant and bleed, test, and get it back out the door in 36 minutes, you have probably made worldwide news and Audi has contacted you for a medal of maintenance honor.

My apologies for not recognizing your fame.

i will agree with you on the dodge intrepid. the 2.7 isnt even good as a boat anchor, and while the 3.2/3.5 is better, both have their draw backs. my 98 3.2 ate 5 coil packs, one at a time, in a 3 week period. one small water puddle flooded and ruined the PCM (why the FFFF is it under the hood again?), and did $700 worth of corrosion to the engine harness and fuse block. nothing seals in that thing. its also a feat to change the acc belts, and for some stupid reason, everything is serpentine EXCEPT the A/C (V-belt), which has the highest load. so it squeals a lot unless its overtightened, which shortens the belt life.

add to that the stupid sensor locations, the difficult motor mounts, the crappy way the interior is held together, and the paper thin speakers, and im pretty disappointed.

however, 120k, no transmission issues. original engine, alt, water pump, a/c, trans, power steering, and all suspension. everything is still tight and functional. knock on wood.

-J0N

Feedyurhed wrote: On the flip side............what's easy to fix? I'd ask what is a good reliable car that doesn't need a lot of work but then you would likely never see them in the first place. How's the Mercedes running these days?

Mercedes are electrical nightmares. I crossed those off the list for the forseeable future. Additionally, new entry level Benzes aren't even as nice as upper level Hyundais when it comes to the interior.

Easy to work on? I'll say Subarus. Even if you have to do the Evil Head Gaskets yanking the engine isn't hard. I describe them as an air cooled VW engine with water passages going backwards without all the silly shrouding.

I can't say for mechanical repairs, but VW/Audi products are on the top of my hate list for auto body repairs. These cars literally explode into 2 million bits of unidentifiable plastic when they get hit in the front. Coupled with motor mounts that shear from the block and engines that go back and hit the firewall, trans cases that fracture, intercoolers mounted with designed-to-break mounting tabs...they are just awful. I junk every one I can because they are always a nightmare. And I used to own/drive VAG products...

The soft bushings on the B5 control arms (and many other applications) can be addressed with the old 3M Window Weld trick. Not practical for shop use, but great if you're an owner. I did the thrust arm bushings on my E39 last fall and they're still holding up just fine.

IMHO, BMWs, at least up to the last generation, were pretty decent to work on, for most stuff at least. I can reach most everything fairly easily, and even the bits that are buried in the engine are fairly quickly removed if you know a trick or two. Now it seems they are setting the engines further back, making access to the rear cylinders on the inline motors very difficult, especially in the smaller platforms. This plus all the additional bits they seem to need to hang in the engine bay makes them increasingly problematic. I looked under the hood of a 1-series - it was enough to make me never want to own one, at least not with a six.

This is the thread where I will be called out as the BMW fan boi but.... the Bavarians do make the easiest platforms I have ever had the pleasure to bleed on.

I have had an E28, 2 E30s, 2 E36s, 1 E46 and they all could be completely disassembled with the same 20 tools. I am so right there with you on the Passat. I did a timing belt, axles, cooling service and front clip repair on the mrs car... its why we have an E46 wagon now. Because when I lift the hood all the common maintenance items are right in front of me (and there is no timing belt). When I drain the trans or diff... its right out in the open. They have their issues for sure but when you need to fix them you can use a watch instead of a calendar to estimate it.

RexSeven wrote: FTFY. I remember reading an aritcle in one of the rags around the same time the New Beetle came out that the VW group was seriously considering making thier cars unrepairable by their customers/competing shops by making proprietary tools and hardware. Yep, even down to the bolts and nuts.

I believe they might have run afoul of still-pending "Right to Repair "legislation, not to mention the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975, which deals with warranties...

I meant .6 for the nose part-it really is simple. I've done it several times. My Dad the non-mechanic did it in a little over and hour. Maybe we're just genetically disposed to be good at it.

As for the "Nobody makes that socket" you need to get a good tool man. If you can't find it in one of the catalogs on the tool truck you're not trying hard enough (do you sense a theme here?). Ever done VW/Audi cylinder heads? How did you manage without a spline drive or posi-bit socket? Same thing with an LH transmission. Without the right tools it would be a bitch. I borrowed what I needed the first time then bought them that week. Buy the right tools for the job and it won't give you nearly as much trouble. While I'm generally against the huge tool boxes you can practically live in, the days of being a professional technician with a small stacked box are long gone. If you don't drop at least $100 a week in tools, especially at an independent where you can see anything, then you either already have every tool ever made or you're going to have problems like you describe.

ddavidv wrote: Easy to work on? I'll say Subarus.

Hence why I continue buying the damn things. Don't use nonsynthetic grease on the wheel bearings, NGK or OE Denso for plugs only, and the front diff drain plug is T70. No more thought required.

And THIS is why I decided to not go into the Auto repair feild after over 2 years of training.

neon4891 wrote: And THIS is why I decided to not go into the Auto repair feild after over 2 years of training.

Thats kinda my point. If you can't hack it then try another line of work. Whiny mechanics just really piss me off. Its SUPPOSED to be hard! If it was easy everyone would do it themselves and I'd be out of a job!

curtis73 wrote: Mazda 3. Its not so much that they're hard to fix, but they keep breaking. We have 5 at the shop. And I'm not talking about little stuff... one has a broken motor mount after hitting a pothole. It didn't dent the wheel or throw the alignment off... it sacrificed the motor mount. And don't even get me started on how you have to remove the A/C compressor to get the pass side control arm off.

The motor mount has a recall on it. The bolt that goes through the mount was made too short.under heavy load it shears right off at the mount bracket and or just rips up the mount. Theres been a redesign already. Longer bolt diffrent thread pitch.

And pay attention cause you will like this one. If you pull the Bolt (1) from the rear tranny mount bracket you can stick a prybar in there or anywhere for that matter and tilt the engine more then enough back to pull the CONTROL ARM BOLT. Ta da. Try it out youll thank me.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Thats kinda my point. If you can't hack it then try another line of work. Whiny mechanics just really piss me off. Its SUPPOSED to be hard! If it was easy everyone would do it themselves and I'd be out of a job!

Every shop has one guy who gets all the jobs everybody else complains about. He makes beaucoup time on them and everybody else wonders how. "How" results when someone thinks outside the box and gets inventive.

curtis wrote: And pay attention cause you will like this one. If you pull the Bolt (1) from the rear tranny mount bracket you can stick a prybar in there or anywhere for that matter and tilt the engine more then enough back to pull the CONTROL ARM BOLT. Ta da. Try it out youll thank me.

Ooohh... smart. Although is that any quicker than just removing the compressor?

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Thats kinda my point. If you can't hack it then try another line of work. Whiny mechanics just really piss me off. Its SUPPOSED to be hard! If it was easy everyone would do it themselves and I'd be out of a job!

Its not whether or not I can hack it, its whether or not I enjoy it. I don't enjoy repairing things while finding ways around ridiculously stupid engineering. I'm currently looking for other work in hot rod/custom shops since that's what I've done for the last 10+ years, but the economy has hotrod shops laying people off, while repair shops are booming. Had to take the work that was offered. I spent two months beating the pavement at every hot rod shop I knew of. The only one I found hiring was in Wilmington NC. I'm in Austin TX. That's a bit more of a commute than I'm willing to make.

curtis73 wrote: I'm currently looking for other work in hot rod/custom shops since that's what I've done for the last 10+ years, but the economy has hotrod shops laying people off, while repair shops are booming. Had to take the work that was offered.

Good luck with that. I ran a Hot Rod shop for 5 years. Do it because you love the work, not because you want to get rich at it. Only people I know of getting rich are the owners, and not all of them. Had this conversation with my ex-business partner in that shop just last night. After 10 fairly successful years hes looking to get out too.

Food for thought: when engineering a hot rod from scratch remember that eventually somethings going to fail and need to be replaced. A few years on the next mechanic might be cursing YOU for putting it together the way you did!