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SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 9:39 a.m.

I have 2 questions about titling:

  1. If I buy a car in VA, and get a signed title, and a bill of sale, is that all I need to get it titled in PA? do i need any notary stuffs or anything?

2.(the tricky one) I have a car that has my, and my ex wife's name on the title... yeah, one of THOSE situations... and I have no clue where where she is, how to contact here.. heck, I don't even know if she alive (I haven't heard from her in years, gladly.) Is there any way to sell this car, or get the title in my name only? I really dislike the car, but in the divource stuff got all messed up, and I was left with a car, with payments, and the bank would not let her off the loan/title. she agreed that she would sign it over to me when I got the title, and low and behold, 2 months later, when I did, she decided would renege on the agreement, and said she wanted 5 grand to sign the title over to me... even though we had a written agreement. Yes, I was stupid, it is merely a piece of paper, no notary or anything. During this time she was living in Kansas city MO, and I was in central PA.

essentially, I have a car that has my name, and hers on the title, is paid off, has been in PA, with me driving it, for the past 6 years, registered to only me, insured to only me, and I want to get rid of it. and last I heard she was in California, but I have not heard from her in those 6 years, and have no way to contact her. If there is no other option, I will part it out, and scrap it. (I really dislike this car THAT much, and it is worth about 3500.. not including the many modifications, that really mean nothing to the normal guy, but some kid would like.)

Thanks for any help you can provide.

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas Dork
1/18/13 9:45 a.m.

"Lose" the title, sell it to someone in a state that has an easy lost title process (like Kansas, for instance), have them file for a lost title. If it has been reported stolen, they go to jail. If it hasn't been reported stolen, they get the title and sell it back to you.

Disclaimer: Might not be strictly speaking legal, YMMV, etc etc.

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 9:48 a.m.

In reply to JohnInKansas:

I have considered losing the title, but I am looking for something "gray" at worst. and I know it has not been reported stolen... and I would bet the value of the car, she doesn't have enough info, or intelligence to get enough info to be able to report it stolen. (advantage of me having it, even if she did try to report it.. I am pretty sure I can prove it is mine.)

(like getting someone else to sign things, and saying she did it.. honestly, she will never know. but I still need to find a "legal" way to make it all mine, so it can no longer be mine.)

Klayfish
Klayfish Dork
1/18/13 9:52 a.m.

Re: question 1 - you should have the seller notarize the bill of sale and/or title. I'm in PA and have bought many out of state cars and never had an issue.

Re: question 2 - yuck. Any notary that's following the laws/regulations is going to require the ex-wife to sign off on the title as she has legal interest in the car. That's going to need some legal documentation unfortunately. Check with the DMV to see what they'd want to see, but probably some kind of court order.

44Dwarf
44Dwarf SuperDork
1/18/13 10:04 a.m.

Just sign her name.......

Ranger50
Ranger50 UberDork
1/18/13 10:35 a.m.
44Dwarf wrote: Just sign her name.......

BTDT and got a strange look from the county clerk when bringing a Mustang into KY from MO.....

andrave
andrave Dork
1/18/13 10:56 a.m.

PA requires titles be notarized, but that only applies if its a PA title. Since its a VA title it will go by VA title transfer laws. They can be found here: http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/selling.asp They don't require a notary, so you won't need to get the title notarized to register the vehicle in PA. A bill of sale isn't required, but without one they will go by book value for the amount of taxes you will owe on the vehicle. For this reason alone, it would be best to do a bill of sale. The bill of sale should be notarized to make sure the DMV accepts it, though legally, its not a requirement. I would do it just avoid any hassle. I have had dmv workers insist they must be notarized and although that is not the law, it doesn't help you get your title transferred.

As for the question about the vehicle you and your exwife own, there are several questions I would need answered to give you further information (not advice. This is not legal advice. don't act on this without consulting an attorney). 1) Is the vehicle titled with an "and" between your names, or an "or?" If its an or, either of you can sell the car at any time. If its an "and," you will both need to sign. 2) You got divorced. What does the property settlment agreement in your final divorce decree say about the car? If the judge ordered it to you, you shoudl be able to take an official copy (stamped with seal) of the final order in to DMV and they should transfer title to you without her signature. 3) If final decree doesn't explicitly give you the car, how was the written agreement incorporated into your divorce? Did the judge just say that the parties had worked out the property to their own satisfaction? The contract between you and her regarding the car is a legal contract, but you will have to sue her to act on it if she has failed to uphold her part of the agreement. If she is out of state she probably won't show up and you will get a default judgment and the judge can order title transferred to you in his order. Take the order in and get it transferred. Only problem I see there is sometimes it can be tricky to obtain service on someone if their address is unknown, and most judges won't proceed without at least having attempted service. You'll probably have to publish it.

Finally, I do want to caution that you can't legally "scrap" it without the title, though I am aware of many scrap yards that will scrap cars without title (even one in pa).

If there is any way to track down your ex wife, the simplest (though perhaps most unpleasant in some ways) option may be just to track her down and tell her you need to get rid of the car and that she needs to sign the title. If she is out of state there isn't going to be an easy to do this in a way that ensures that she doesn't end up with your copy of the title. If she is a manipulative money grubbing bitch this may end up causing you more problems than you have now.

Personally, depending on how its incorporated into you divorce decree, I'd either go back to the court that did your divorce and ask that she be held in contempt if he ordered the car to you, ask him to modify the order to expressly state that the car is your property, and that DMV transfer title to you, or, if the order isn't clear, you could also sue her (possibly in small claims court, not sure what PA's limits on small claims are, and not sure what your vehicle is worth) under the terms of the written contract you had. As state, highly unlikely you'll obtain actual service on her if she has flown the coop, and even more unlikely that she will show up either way, which means default judgment for you.

RealMiniDriver
RealMiniDriver SuperDork
1/18/13 10:59 a.m.

Is PA like WI? We have the option to use "and" or "or" when two people are named on vehicle titles. If it says "and", both signatures are needed. If it says "or", only one signature is needed.

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 11:02 a.m.

In reply to andrave:

Now that was a mouth full of good info... I think I shall make some calls on point 2, and stop worrying so much about point 1.(because as you said, you are NOT a lawyer).

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 11:03 a.m.

In reply to RealMiniDriver:

it just has the names.. there is no "and" or "or'.

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
1/18/13 11:05 a.m.

Know anyone that runs a good old fashioned chop shop?

Klayfish
Klayfish Dork
1/18/13 11:10 a.m.

To my knowledge, PA doesn't do "or" on titles. I think it just lists each owner individually. I haven't checked PA DMV laws specifically, but having bought many out of state cars and titled them here in PA, the notary places I've dealt with want the out of state title notarized. I'd rather be safe than sorry...notary costs what, $15?

I agree with the notion of tracking down the ex, as unpleasant as it may be. Could be the easiest and quickest solution. I don't use Facebook, etc... but I'm one of the very few who don't. Chances are you can find her that way. You do remember her name, right?

andrave
andrave Dork
1/18/13 11:26 a.m.

You can do a background search on her with some basic info. The free service is pretty crappy but I find people with it all the time. If I can't find the person, there is a 95% chance I can find someone who knows where she is.

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 11:27 a.m.

Oh, I COULD find her, but as of the last time we talked, the only way she would sign the title over is if I gave her 5k.. the car isn't even worth that much.

yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
1/18/13 11:36 a.m.

In reply to SCARRMRCC: Find her and offer to sell the car to her for $5k.....otherwise, the other recommendations make sense, but 5k normally wouldn't be worth the hassle. So, since it isn't worth 5k, gut it and make it a race car.....then you could lose the title.

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 11:42 a.m.

In reply to yamaha:

HA, I thought about that, but (there is always a but isn't there?) it is a 2001 eclipse spyder... 4cyl auto. it will NEVER be worth it as a racecar....well someday it might be worth it as a chumpcar/lemons car.

andrave
andrave Dork
1/18/13 11:53 a.m.

My experience, which is extensive, is that ex's care less and less about E36 M3 the further it gets from the divorce. I feel that there is a decent chance she will just say berkeley it and sign it over. If not, if you can at least get in touch with her, tell her youre going to sue her under the contract she signed, and then she will have to sign it over AND pay your court costs. That may motivate her.

If that fails, tell her a check came in for her and you need her address to forward it to her. Then just serve her anyway. lol

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
1/18/13 3:00 p.m.

Not that I would advocate such a grey area but you could sell it to someone in oh say...New Jersey, where notaries are not required.

If you were to sell that car to them and sign off your spot and they were to then, without your knowledge, sign the other spot, they could get a PA title. Of course they might decide they weren't happy with the transaction, and you, being a good guy, would offer to take the car back and they would have to give you the NJ title.

SCARRMRCC
SCARRMRCC New Reader
1/18/13 3:05 p.m.

In reply to JThw8:

that is grey... really grey. (exactly the grey idea I was looking for). it is good to know I have that option. Not that I would do it, as I am a stand up kinda guy.

BTW, anyone here from New Jersey, want to buy a challenge car.. with a sketchy title?

(seriously, I think It is worth more as parts/scrap steel, as there is so much aftermarket on it.)

ClemSparks
ClemSparks PowerDork
1/18/13 3:13 p.m.
JohnInKansas wrote: "Lose" the title, sell it to someone in a state that has an easy lost title process (like Kansas, for instance), have them file for a lost title. If it has been reported stolen, they go to jail. If it hasn't been reported stolen, they get the title and sell it back to you. Disclaimer: Might not be strictly speaking legal, YMMV, etc etc.

John...want to help me get a title for my '78 Malibu? Or...I mean your '78 Malibu that I'll sell you for a dollar and buy back for what you have in it (and I won't even charge you storage in the meantime!)...lol

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas Dork
1/18/13 3:19 p.m.

In reply to ClemSparks:

Sending you a PM. They've bugged my phone.

(rustling of aluminum foil)

andrave
andrave Dork
1/18/13 3:28 p.m.

You cannot title this car in another state if the title in PA is treated as and "and" (I did google it but could not definitely answer this, but it looks like that is probably the case), the DMV in the state you attempt to transfer to will look back at PA's requirements. Generally you have to satisfy the home state's requirements for titles when transfering OUT of that state. Ie, if I in WV buy a PA title, it MUST be notarized or WV won't accpet it, because when accepting PA titles, WV goes by PA requirements. PA requires a notary. If you were to get lucky and get a DMV worker who accpeted it, I suppose it could slide by. My experience thus far (which is maybe a half dozen out of state vehicles in a few different states) is that when that DMV clerk sees an out of state title, they flip open a big book of state by state requirements and look it up, and if it comes from PA, they make me get it notarized. I actually had a vehicle from PA that was sold to a guy in NY. I went to NY to pick it up and never suspected it had been a PA car. I had drove all the way up there only to find out he never titled it in NY and it was still a PA title, he hadn't titled it in his name and left it in the name of the guy he bought it from, who hadn't notarized it. I (stupidly) bought the car anyway, thinking, as others said, that I could just slip it by a DMV worker who wouldn't know (it was signed). 3 different WV dmv's said no. I moved to TX, brought car with me, TX dmv said no. I ended up stripping all the parts off, transferring them to a shell I bought from a salvage yard, and selling that shell to a guy who wanted to build a drift car. I could never get the car legally titled (and oh by the way in the interim the seller promised he would get the PA guy to notarize the title, so I sent him the title certified mail, and then he dropped off the face of the earth and wouldn't answer calls/emails/letters anymore).

Lesson learned.

moparman76_69
moparman76_69 HalfDork
1/18/13 3:33 p.m.

good luck with that

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
1/18/13 4:15 p.m.
andrave wrote: You cannot title this car in another state if the title in PA is treated as and "and" (I did google it but could not definitely answer this, but it looks like that is probably the case), the DMV in the state you attempt to transfer to will look back at PA's requirements. Generally you have to satisfy the home state's requirements for titles when transfering OUT of that state. Ie, if I in WV buy a PA title, it MUST be notarized or WV won't accpet it, because when accepting PA titles, WV goes by PA requirements. PA requires a notary. If you were to get lucky and get a DMV worker who accpeted it, I suppose it could slide by. My experience thus far (which is maybe a half dozen out of state vehicles in a few different states) is that when that DMV clerk sees an out of state title, they flip open a big book of state by state requirements and look it up, and if it comes from PA, they make me get it notarized. I actually had a vehicle from PA that was sold to a guy in NY. I went to NY to pick it up and never suspected it had been a PA car. I had drove all the way up there only to find out he never titled it in NY and it was still a PA title, he hadn't titled it in his name and left it in the name of the guy he bought it from, who hadn't notarized it. I (stupidly) bought the car anyway, thinking, as others said, that I could just slip it by a DMV worker who wouldn't know (it was signed). 3 different WV dmv's said no. I moved to TX, brought car with me, TX dmv said no. I ended up stripping all the parts off, transferring them to a shell I bought from a salvage yard, and selling that shell to a guy who wanted to build a drift car. I could never get the car legally titled (and oh by the way in the interim the seller promised he would get the PA guy to notarize the title, so I sent him the title certified mail, and then he dropped off the face of the earth and wouldn't answer calls/emails/letters anymore). Lesson learned.

I can tell you for a certain fact I can run a PA title through NJ without having it notarized. NJ only cares about their rules, not PAs. I buy cars out of PA all the time, never bother to get them notarized. Just brought one in from Oklahoma, also a notary state, no notary, no worries.

patgizz
patgizz GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/18/13 6:52 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
44Dwarf wrote: Just sign her name.......
He can't. He's in PA. It has to be notarized.

find a notary you know? i mean, i know a notary. and she would do something like that for me.

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