2000-2015ish BMW vs Volvo; Fight!

With an eye toward daily driving with some combination of DIY and independent shop maintenance and repair, what does GRM think?

I've got a couple of BMW shops around I like okay, and there are some independent Volvo folks, though I'm not as familiar with them.

I live seven minutes from IPD.

I've got more BMW familiarity.

Within those makes, looking mostly at E39 and E61 5 series, and learning about the tradeoffs (er, age vs complexity?) between P2 and P3 V70ish (so... anything in the sedan or wagon form factors and 5-series-esque size, probably. It sounds like Volvo spreads their platforms across a lot of stuff... One platform for compact, full size, and one SUV?)

The underlying motivator here for being aimed at these two is that they have enough enthusiasm and aftermarket support to be user-serviceable, and are interesting enough to make it worthwhile. There are probably other good options, but to make a useless comparison to software, it's a lot easier to fix stuff when other people have already documented how.

Man, sounds like the P3s might be a little too heavy on the modern electronics and also have a bit of a pile of years to skip for miscellaneous known issues (e.g. an FCP Euro video I just watched called out '12-'15 for a piston design that resulted in heavy oil consumption which if it happens is a new-pistons thing, but then it got very confusing because I think the car they were talking about would have been after that year range... ugh; they've got a lot of content, but maybe it's not the quality it ought to be).

Still curious what GRM says on all these, but having a gut feeling that P3 may be "too new" in terms of design and features if not actual age...

I've owned both a 1994 Volvo 945T and a 2003 BMW 530i sport package.  Well actually, I still own the 530i.   The aim for both vehicles was interesting reliable driver.   From this small sample size, the BMW has aged far better.  Currently around 190k miles on it, and I'd drive it anywhere.  The Volvo suffered from a few electrical gremlins and was looking to be due for a turbo replace/rebuild when I sold it with around 130k miles.  Both should be easy to get oem-quality parts for, and both should be well-documented online. 

It would be very hard to argue against the E39, assuming you can still find a nice one for reasonable.

Edit:  Yah, if you are looking at DIY, you need to stick to the very start of your year range.  I ended up in a 2003 E39 because it is widely regarded as the "last of the DIY BMW's."

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

Agreed on the E39.  An E38 7 series may be worth considering as well, especially if you can find a sport version.

At this point, my guess is it's going to come down to how nice of an example you can find of either. These cars are getting thinner on the ground.

My sense is that it will be easier to find a nice E39 or E38 than equivalent era Volvo. This comes from owning BMWs and being in that BMW CCA world, while working at a Volvo dealership. There seem to be a few more people who take really nice care of BMWs than Volvos. But again, it will come down to how nice can you find.

I suppose you could buy a clapped out example of either one, but I wouldn't do that unless I was a masochist. 

If you were able to find a really nice E39 and P2 V70 at the same time for the same price, I'd go BMW just because I like the way they drive more, and my guess is the two of them are probably close equally demanding to own. Honestly, 2000s era V70 and S70 Volvos always felt a little flinty to me even when they were new.

Jesse Ransom said:

Man, sounds like the P3s might be a little too heavy on the modern electronics and also have a bit of a pile of years to skip for miscellaneous known issues (e.g. an FCP Euro video I just watched called out '12-'15 for a piston design that resulted in heavy oil consumption which if it happens is a new-pistons thing, but then it got very confusing because I think the car they were talking about would have been after that year range... ugh; they've got a lot of content, but maybe it's not the quality it ought to be).

Still curious what GRM says on all these, but having a gut feeling that P3 may be "too new" in terms of design and features if not actual age...

I'm looking to get out of my 850R for a more modern daily driver now that I also have a Porsche in my life, and I was advised by everyone in my Volvo circle that the P2 chassis is the last truly user-serviceable Volvo platform. The P3 V70s are all transverse inline sixes that are a nightmare to work on in addition to more complex electronics, and the V60s had oil consumption problems until pretty late in their life, at which point they also get into "digital dipstick" and "fully non-serviceable" automatic transmission type stuff...

Having owned multiple E39s including a touring and spent some quality time behind the wheel of P2s, IMO the P2 wagon is the better car in every way except for driving excitement. The E39 tourings have some weird quirks (unique rear suspension not shared with the sedan that has big difficult to replace bushings that fail, tailgates that rust even in dry climates, etc) and get awful gas mileage (I typically averaged 19MPG mixed...on premium). No experience with the E61 but I have not heard great things, the E39 also seems like the last truly user-serviceable BMW 5er.

I am still tempted by the 80s early 90s RWD Volvos. I loved mine despite it being a $500 beater with 195,000 miles. They are rather old now. My vote goes to BMW. The more recent Volvos make me a bit nervous.

P3s are big Focuses.  P2s are getting hard to find.

Dark horse for consideration would be a well cared for Volvo S80 V8 (P3 platform).  Mine has been a peach for the 11 years I've owned it.  The Yamaha V8 is pretty much bulletproof, just watch out for eventual oil leaks from the valve covers.  Get a DICE tool and copy of VIDA and you can plug in to the car and diagnose pretty much anything.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Out here in the SF Bay at least, really nice Berkeley professor/retired grandma-owned P2s are still a common occurrence on CL and FB marketplace.

I really wish I hadn't fallen victim to the siren song of a fixer upper 850R and had just bought one of those.

In reply to pointofdeparture :

I still see good examples around here too, mostly out of Connecticut. Usually around 200k miles on them. Of course, when I was looking, I couldn't find one, so I ended up in a P1 V50.

On the BMW/Volvo question, I think you can include the E8x/E9x cars in the DIYable category, as long as you have a scanner that can read BMW codes. Can't speak to Volvos other than the P1, but so far it hasn't been bad. Packaging is tight on both, but in different ways. The BMWs are going to be more fun, but at least the P1 Volvos are reasonably entertaining.

I neglected to mention it in this thread, but regarding level of joie de vivre, this is a continuation of the "what do we do to replace my wife's Q5" question; so to a great extent we get sufficient excitement out of it being a BMW or a Volvo rather than a Camry; it doesn't need to be a rocket or have the sharpest handling; there's a greater premium on being a nice place to be. The Q5 misstep aside, we're coming from smaller, sportier, and/or older vehicles; when Trent got his E39 we boggled at the stories of speaking in low voices at freeway speed just because they could...

Regarding scanners and so forth that might make slightly later cars DIY-able, we're really looking at this as taking the Q5 budget and using it to get a vehicle we actually like, which leaves solid headroom for finding a nice example, buying specialty tools, and heading for the local specialist for anything that needs a tool that doesn't make sense for me to acquire (or for which I don't have time or inclination). I do think we're headed more for 5 series than 3 or 1 series, but we're going to hit Carmax soon to see whether an F30 3 series might work. I'm working under the impression that generationally it'll be similar to work on to the F55 Mini and that depending on options I might get away with a slightly newer 3 series than 5 series before the tech gets crazy, but it's down to whehter it feels spacious enough to live up to some of the expectations set by the Q5 (I mean, it obviously won't be that big, but how much bigger/nicer than the Mini?)

I did just stumble into 5series.net, and their document, "So you just bought an E60," though I haven't absorbed it all.

I appreciate all the feedback so far. Sounds like I probably don't want a P3 (potential Yamaha S80 exception noted), regionally I'm probably better set than average to find a P2, but it still feels like a bit more of an uphill path than a BMW. Maybe.

On the question of comfort, I would suggest that the only BMW seats worth having are the sport seats. Maybe the recent stuff has gotten fancy with ventilation and massage and such, but in all of my BMW experiences with the earlier cars, it was sport seats or flat seats that were unsupportive whether you were driving hard or not. Volvo seats, on the other hand, are shockingly comfortable. The seats in my V50 don't look like anything special, but after 218k miles, they're still considerably better than the non-sport seats in my E39 were at half the mileage.

Do BMWs of this vintage still have the interior plastics that seemed to just disintegrate one day like the older ones? I remember E34s and E36s as being pretty bad, but E39s and E46s seemed better, but they were also newer.

The biggest issue that the P2 seems to have is the mouse fuzz falling off of the A pillars.  Fortunately they are cheap enough to buy new that it doesn't make sense to try to reglue the old ones, but they seem to only last four years before they start to fall off.  My last pair were like $20-30 each.

With Volvos either go 1990s or relatively late model.

Good news is that Volvos depreciate like rocks, slightly out of warranty examples are 50% (or more) of MSRP.

I ended up with a 2017 V60 and it's been rock solid. Just rolled 161k and in that entire time it's needed a starter + regular consumables. It's a top 5 car for me. It's certainly less sporty than a BMW but it's also been much less needy