The comments over there make this place seem like the Harvard Debate and Chess Society.
The comments over there make this place seem like the Harvard Debate and Chess Society.
I should have stayed out of that.
Dammit gumby.
Comments section must be misplaced, they're commenting on the $2000 Easy Everybody Wins No Effort Boring Dumdum Race but it's under the $2000 Challenge article.
fireflybug_and_wallkisser2025 said:I love how if anyone knew me I built this car not knowing anything and having all the excuses in the world. However I wanted a fun fast car and had no money so I made it work and kept asking and kept learning!!
What are you, some kind of rich guy? Imagine being able to afford asking questions and learning, in this economy?!
maschinenbau said:Ew I'm not clicking that link
I couldn't resist....so I commented.
A few things I've learned over the last 3 years of owning the poster child for "There is no way that was $2000" car.
We have to acknowledge that we build $2000 Themed cars. $2000 is a rule set. It is a very budget oriented ruleset and it is possible to do well and win for legit cash outlays of that amount, however the rules do allow for the vehicles to cost substantially more then $2000, and most of them do. In fact the current rules would fairly easily allow a ~$7000 car to compete ($2000 Cash, $2000 Recoup, $1500 Free Hoosiers, ~$500 free brakes, ~$1000 SFI parts, $500 Harnesses). This is okay but it's reality, and it's hard to defend when the tagline is "$2000 cars". That said MOST people understand and accept that it's a ruleset just like they understand that LeMons doesn't race $500 cars.
The reality of the challenge is it rewards Knowledge, Ingenuity, and Community NOT spending $$. You cannot win without these. You need to know a LOT of skills that only come with hard work and experience (knowledge) it can either be your own or your team but someone needs to learn how to do stuff other then spend $$. You need to find speed where others don't see it (Ingenuity), find parts that are not valued by society, figure out new ways to do things, use techniques from other industries. You need to network to find parts and resources that you don't have to be successful (Community) You are unlikely to find what you need buying at retail you have to have people looking out for deals for you, you need to augment skills you don't have with others, and you need help because often $$ is replaced with Time.
And the Biggest thing I've learned. It's not about you it's about them. It is VERY hard for people to accept that someone else is just better at something than them based on merit. People will build up whatever narrative they need to to ensure that you have had something given to you that they lack that enabled your success so they don't have to acknowledge their failure. Despite the fact that ~30 people per year have built race cars for ~$2000 every year for the last 25 years, they cannot see how THEY can do it. They themselves lack the ability and the bridge for them to close the gap to what you have achieved is so high it breaks their brain so they put up roadblocks. They start with your cheating, then the move the goalpost to you got free parts, you own tools they don't own, you have a shop they don't have, you got an education they didn't get, etc. Anything they can put between acknowledging that you ACHIEVED something they cannot IMAGINE. You will never convince these people because it's doesn't take you being right but them admitting they are wrong. And they simply won't do that.
The good news is that in my experience it's about 80% of people that "get" the event. They recgonize that it's still the cheapest game in motorsports but ultimately it's still motorsports. The 20% that complain on the interenet are never bringing cars anyway. I've stopped wasting time discussing it with them. I'll be polite but I'd rather spend hours talking about the car or event to the 80% that are jazzed up about it then trying to convince people that have made up their mind.
Just my thoughts. Yours may vary.
My biggest issue with the rules is that not everything is based on FMV. If you're extraordinarily lucky you can score some deals well below FMV or 'free'. The competition would be a little more fair and builds reproducible with FMV. I don't care so much about recoup and excluded items (so long as recoup is fmv) That's something anyone can do. Or course that means it would probably need to be a 4-5k challenge instead.
theruleslawyer said:My biggest issue with the rules is that not everything is based on FMV. If you're extraordinarily lucky you can score some deals well below FMV or 'free'. The competition would be a little more fair and builds reproducible with FMV. I don't care so much about recoup and excluded items (so long as recoup is fmv) That's something anyone can do. Or course that means it would probably need to be a 4-5k challenge instead.
May be wrong, but "free" is no longer allowed on a budget sheet. It has to be FMV
Dusterbd13 said:Dammit gumby.
My apologies friend. Please see Nocones post to restore your calm and clarity. Send fish heads to the other 20%
In reply to Mr_Asa :
My free car cost $7 in a documented and witnessed transaction.
It's better to be straightforward and upright about these things, and get pixzors dude!
theruleslawyer said:My biggest issue with the rules is that not everything is based on FMV. If you're extraordinarily lucky you can score some deals well below FMV or 'free'. The competition would be a little more fair and builds reproducible with FMV. I don't care so much about recoup and excluded items (so long as recoup is fmv) That's something anyone can do. Or course that means it would probably need to be a 4-5k challenge instead.
So here are the rules https://view.monday.com/6926752915-a8453491564eeecb98040697a27e71d5?r=use1
It is possible to have free items, but there is a caveat:
"Free parts must be known to and available to the public (eg. sitting in a ditch on the side of the road). Free parts must be supported by documentation (bill of sale saying free, screenshot of a Craigslist curb alert, photo of a dumpster overflowing with nitrous kits, etc.)"
To be free, it has to be documented pretty well- that it's just there on the side of the road, a dumpster, or on some classifieds as free. Let alone, GRM can use the BS'o'meter to decide that something isn't correct.
As for "deals" from someone, pretty much the same thing applies, BUT if you are given something by a friend, then this applies:
"“Free” parts given to you by a friend must be added to the budget at fair market value."
Even good "deals" are constrained by FMV.
If people are doing FMV games like you imply, the rest of the people can appeal and call BS on it, and just put competitors in the above class. As I can see, the challenge is just like any normal autocross- ANYONE is able to challenge anyone else's build to make sure it meets the rules and the goals of the event. But have there been any challenges? It would be really easy to call BS if it were that obvious.
Try the event sometime. It's truly a challenge. But it's hardly impossible.
alfadriver said:So here are the rules https://view.monday.com/6926752915-a8453491564eeecb98040697a27e71d5?r=use1
It is possible to have free items, but there is a caveat:
"Free parts must be known to and available to the public (eg. sitting in a ditch on the side of the road). Free parts must be supported by documentation (bill of sale saying free, screenshot of a Craigslist curb alert, photo of a dumpster overflowing with nitrous kits, etc.)"
To be free, it has to be documented pretty well- that it's just there on the side of the road, a dumpster, or on some classifieds as free. Let alone, GRM can use the BS'o'meter to decide that something isn't correct.
As for "deals" from someone, pretty much the same thing applies, BUT if you are given something by a friend, then this applies:
"“Free” parts given to you by a friend must be added to the budget at fair market value."
Even good "deals" are constrained by FMV.
If people are doing FMV games like you imply, the rest of the people can appeal and call BS on it, and just put competitors in the above class. As I can see, the challenge is just like any normal autocross- ANYONE is able to challenge anyone else's build to make sure it meets the rules and the goals of the event. But have there been any challenges? It would be really easy to call BS if it were that obvious.
Try the event sometime. It's truly a challenge. But it's hardly impossible.
Yah, I read the rules. If the unwritten rules is there are FMV constraints, why not just make it explicit? Me not showing up has a lot more to do with it being a multi day trip to get to Florida than anything. I'd just bring the Jort mobile down for the lulz and run unlimited if I lived closer
I hate the FMV rules, except if you produce three ads and average the costs. The ones where people ask for five agreeable people on the forum drive me nuts. I'm a firm believer in buying stuff, or getting it for free, and getting a receipt for the stuff from complete strangers. My first car was entirely built from purchased stuff from Craigslist, or Marketplace, even though I have lots of parts in the garage. It's just a cleaner way to do it in my mind.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
What do you mean by the unwritten FMV constraints? That the group can challenge the value? And be specific on how it can be explicit. You seem to think there can be multiple thousands of dollars wrapped up in FMV (well above $2000), so can you provide an example? Or is that just conjecture? As I read the rules, you can buy a car for $2000, sell parts up to $2000, and then spend that $2000 on speed parts. Outside of saftey, brakes, and tires, that's still $2000. Although if you are clever, your actual outlay can be closer to nothing.
As for the drive, where are you? There are people who have come from farther than we are in SE MI.
nocones said:A few things I've learned over the last 3 years of owning the poster child for "There is no way that was $2000" car.
We have to acknowledge that we build $2000 Themed cars. $2000 is a rule set. It is a very budget oriented ruleset and it is possible to do well and win for legit cash outlays of that amount, however the rules do allow for the vehicles to cost substantially more then $2000, and most of them do. In fact the current rules would fairly easily allow a ~$7000 car to compete ($2000 Cash, $2000 Recoup, $1500 Free Hoosiers, ~$500 free brakes, ~$1000 SFI parts, $500 Harnesses). This is okay but it's reality, and it's hard to defend when the tagline is "$2000 cars". That said MOST people understand and accept that it's a ruleset just like they understand that LeMons doesn't race $500 cars.
The reality of the challenge is it rewards Knowledge, Ingenuity, and Community NOT spending $$. You cannot win without these. You need to know a LOT of skills that only come with hard work and experience (knowledge) it can either be your own or your team but someone needs to learn how to do stuff other then spend $$. You need to find speed where others don't see it (Ingenuity), find parts that are not valued by society, figure out new ways to do things, use techniques from other industries. You need to network to find parts and resources that you don't have to be successful (Community) You are unlikely to find what you need buying at retail you have to have people looking out for deals for you, you need to augment skills you don't have with others, and you need help because often $$ is replaced with Time.
And the Biggest thing I've learned. It's not about you it's about them. It is VERY hard for people to accept that someone else is just better at something than them based on merit. People will build up whatever narrative they need to to ensure that you have had something given to you that they lack that enabled your success so they don't have to acknowledge their failure. Despite the fact that ~30 people per year have built race cars for ~$2000 every year for the last 25 years, they cannot see how THEY can do it. They themselves lack the ability and the bridge for them to close the gap to what you have achieved is so high it breaks their brain so they put up roadblocks. They start with your cheating, then the move the goalpost to you got free parts, you own tools they don't own, you have a shop they don't have, you got an education they didn't get, etc. Anything they can put between acknowledging that you ACHIEVED something they cannot IMAGINE. You will never convince these people because it's doesn't take you being right but them admitting they are wrong. And they simply won't do that.
The good news is that in my experience it's about 80% of people that "get" the event. They recgonize that it's still the cheapest game in motorsports but ultimately it's still motorsports. The 20% that complain on the interenet are never bringing cars anyway. I've stopped wasting time discussing it with them. I'll be polite but I'd rather spend hours talking about the car or event to the 80% that are jazzed up about it then trying to convince people that have made up their mind.
Just my thoughts. Yours may vary.
Anyone who has been around racecars knows that setup is the most important aspect of doing well. People complaining don't know this because they haven't DONE it.
theruleslawyer said:alfadriver said:What do you mean by the unwritten FMV constraints? That the group can challenge the value? And be specific on how it can be explicit. You seem to think there can be multiple thousands of dollars wrapped up in FMV (well above $2000), so can you provide an example? Or is that just conjecture? As I read the rules, you can buy a car for $2000, sell parts up to $2000, and then spend that $2000 on speed parts. Outside of saftey, brakes, and tires, that's still $2000. Although if you are clever, your actual outlay can be closer to nothing.
alfadriver said:
Even good "deals" are constrained by FMV.
If people are doing FMV games like you imply, the rest of the people can appeal and call BS on it, and just put competitors in the above class. As I can see, the challenge is just like any normal autocross- ANYONE is able to challenge anyone else's build to make sure it meets the rules and the goals of the event. But have there been any challenges? It would be really easy to call BS if it were that obvious.
Try the event sometime. It's truly a challenge. But it's hardly impossible.
I'm just referring to what you said here. I haven't actually been to the challenge. I know Lemons has judges that will call BS on cars that obviously cost more. Its mostly speculative as I don't care enough to comb through people's spreadsheets and do a FMV analysis. But two factors-
I'm not really doubting people found deals or even free parts. It happens. It just creates the impression that those budgets are nearly impossible to replicate when someone tries going through the spreadsheet. So maybe there is something im missing in how the rules are applied or judged at the actual competition.
Distance- I'm in Chicago. Its a 2 day drive each way. 16-17hrs straight with no stops according to google and I assume a trailer would be slower. Its certainly doable. I know people tow further, but out of my comfort zone anyways.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
"Budgets nearly impossible to replicate" is true, if you don't have the same connections, knowledge, places, etc. available to you. But it doesn't mean impossible to compete with if you have your own flavor of that.
For example, I have a $500 BRZ roller sitting in my shop, just an engine shy of being a totally viable challenge chassis- that's a hard car to find for that number, but I'm in the crappy BRZ world, so to me it's just my parts car. Maybe for somebody else, their connections lead them to a cheap engine, or a cheap set of drag slicks; the possibilities are endless, and everyone's advantages and disadvantages are just a little bit different. That's a big part of what keeps it so interesting, at least to me.
^^^^This
Or can it be replicated?
My 2014, tenth place finishing car which developed more than a tick and less than a knock during the drags so I sold the car during the concourse and returned home via rental car.
My 2015, eleventh place finishing car which was driven 1k miles to the event, wamped on, and driven 1k miles back home.
These two cars do not share a single bolt or item! I guess not an exact replication since the first one was a $1k budget car and the second was a $2k budget
I agree FMV is kinda dumb and I try to avoid it. I won the Challenge in 2019 without any FMV, for both purchases and recoup. I had like 20 actual sale recoups that easily maxed out the $1000 limit at the time.
In reply to maschinenbau :
I dislike the criteria for what is FMV eligible. Mainly cause it makes more work for me
Most of the negative nancies seem to not realize that you can certainly replace money with time. Sometimes it takes time to find the right deal, recondition a part, make a wing, etc. Labor is still free.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
Not sure why you are questioning the rules when what you say is moot. You've admitted that you've never done the Challenge and don't plan to. Do it once and then at least you have something to back up what you're saying.
Every year people get their panties all in a wad right after the Challenge. 99% of the Challenger's frustration during this period is people that have never done it complaining. Honestly that's on us for allowing people that have no idea affect us. It's like listening to a toddler claiming they can fly like Superman.
Stampie said:In reply to theruleslawyer :
Not sure why you are questioning the rules when what you say is moot. You've admitted that you've never done the Challenge and don't plan to. Do it once and then at least you have something to back up what you're saying.
Every year people get their panties all in a wad right after the Challenge. 99% of the Challenger's frustration during this period is people that have never done it complaining. Honestly that's on us for allowing people that have no idea affect us. It's like listening to a toddler claiming they can fly like Superman.
Just having a discussion dude. Like we are all here to do. No panties in a wad here. I'm not the one calling people toddlers. I built my car too superman.
In reply to theruleslawyer :
Bring it down. Caravan with Robbie, nocones, and or Indy-Guy. Personally I'm done with listening to people talk about an event with no personal knowledge of the event. You know what I did before I went to the Challenge? I read every rule revision that came out and bench built according to those rules. All body panels have to be present? Fine how about I melt them down and put them as low as possible in the center of the car. What I didn't do is use me not liking some of the rules as an excuse to bash the event. I showed up in 2015 with a car built to the rules. That's when I learned that the rules are 1% of what makes up the event. As of a little over a week ago I completed my 10th Challenge because it's a great event with great people.
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